**  Just talked to someone and you told them to not use the bankruptcy forms just run an ad.   You told me about this once before but I need a little more clarification or information.

R. Well I'm finding out how what they're using to follow up and how to keep their claims going.  Because whenever we use these drafts …I'm finding out that when we use the drafts here that really does the job.  You could almost call this genocide.  Because they've administratively deliberately set up a system so there is a clearing system so they can start our products on the way  back to us and that includes accounts in these credit cards and stuff.  That they have to go through a clearinghouse of some kind.

**  That's right they have everything mailed from some warehouse.

R   Right you see they use that so they can use our account which is the M3 funds that allows it to come out of public policy tax free.  Once that property comes out of public policy and there is no tax on it, then what they do is they divert the property. … through the hands of their confederates.

**  Oh…Okay

R. So you see that is why it doesn't come back directly to us.  I'm not going to get into that right now but I've run across it and I've seen the pattern in my dealing with these characters so I know now how they were doing it and I think I know now how to deal with it and how to cut them out of it.

**  Okay

R. Say for instance I order something… and lets just say they start to ship it…and lets just say I give them a draft or a check for it and as soon as they ship it out of the warehouse or they at least book it so it is mine at that point…

**  Okay

R. They start it on its way then you see they get all these mischief makers get on the phone and manufacture claims on it so they can divert it into the hands of the confederates while it's on its way to me.  To give them enough for that they run it through these clearinghouses so they can intercept it there and delay it to make sure they have enough time to orchestrate claims.  New commercial claims on it so the pirates can hi-jack it.

**   Wow, what scoundrals

R. See that is what is happening with a lot of stuff.  That is why you're getting these hordes of mail.   These could be clearing houses for the banks as well as the products.

**  Right there are a lot of people that when they have a collection agency trying to collect on behalf of the bank you can't ever tell who you are suppose to be paying or what address.  They have a bank address, a collection agency address and two different account numbers one from the bank and one from the collection company.  That is almost like a double offer.

R. They're all thieves… They are all whores and pimps!

**  Exactly

R. An then to I find out that after they get you on the phone for instance and then I began to realize that whenever we file in these courts that is when you give it away.  I began to discover that cause of some of the interrogation I got from the phone from some of these guys and then I could also see that it had to do with where the product happened to be.  I got a couple of them stirred up and angry.  I got to where I just insulted them and as long as they'll take it I'll just keep doing it.

**   Serves them right (chuckle)

R. One guy, …well as soon as you let them know you're bankrupt (the STRAWMAN) and if that's the kind of agreement you have, then he owes you an obligation right then and there.  So they have to over come that at some point.
See we're just the secured party… but you see it's the same name, it's a synonym but we don't have to tell them this. So this guy is trying to give me the ole one two questioning.   I told him that ROGER ELVICK is bankrupt.  He stops and says when did you declare bankruptcy.  And I said "yesterday".  He said "Where did you file?"    See all of a sudden the declaration became a filing.   Roger kept quiet and let him make his own assumptions.  He finally said to the guy, "I didn't file, I declared bankruptcy".   Oh Okay so you didn't file bankruptcy, you just declared bankruptcy, have you ever declared bankruptcy before?  Roger told him yea last week.  He said how many times have you declared bankruptcy?   Roger told him about 500 times since February of this year.   See a declaration is done in private.  and when you file you're creating the bond for the bankruptcy and you're doing it back to the public who hasn't given you any satisfaction.  I'm just accepting your offer but I'm ROGER ELVICK is bankrupt and I'm requesting you provide me with the product of your offer without cost immediately.  Then I hung up on him.

**

R. See that scenerio I just told you about, first of all 1)  Have you declared bankruptcy… Yeah . When and where did you file… that's the next step immediately and people don't realize that the declaration of bankruptcy makes it tax exempt and they can take it out of bankruptcy if you file then you've given it back to them.  That's what they assume because it's a public court.  They assume you petition them and the beat goes on…..  The thing is not to give them any of it.  Because I see they make phone calls and don't say anything.  Do you ever get phone calls when no one answers?

**  Oh sure

R. Well see they assume they have a contract with you and hook up to your phone line.  See if that happens and no one is there then that's when you say…. STRAWMAN (the name of course) IS BANKRUPT…PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH THE PRODUCT OF YOUR OFFER WITHOUT COST IMMEDIATELY.  Then hang up.
Now when you tell them you're bankrupt they don't have anything anywhere, because there assumption is gone.   As a matter of fact you told them you're bankrupt and no matter where they have the claim now.  You see they can't work on any assumption because with that there you bound the conscience.  You're the owner of the equity.  Now you see we can go ahead and sell the equity.

**  Wonderful.. Okay

R. Like for instance here you could take out a classified ad and advertise For Sale by Owner and advertise anything these people have under their names.  Because when they refused you they have agreed to involuntary bankruptcy and that means liquidation of their assets to provide you the remedy.

**  How do you find their assets?

R. Well you're going to have to write to them and ask them for them to start with.  Just tell them the reason for it is, is that you have agreed to involuntary bankruptcy by refusing to comply with the bankruptcy.  That agreement means that your property is subject to liquidation in settlement.

**  Okay…I did a draft to a collection agency for an old credit card and they returned my draft but took off the offer that they sent earlier and I had accepted it and stapled it on the draft and returned it.  Well the collection agency removed it and sent my draft back.  I took that to mean they are trying to withdraw their offer…

R. Okay well they have the funds… it's just like they withdrew the funds from your bank account.  So now they have to provide you with these funds as the remedy in bankruptcy and in the event they refuse you are now the owner of the equity and will advertise it for sale and then …oh and you do it under their name.  You take the name and then just advertise in a classified ad "For Sale by Owner" and then list it that you will sell in equity under this persons name for that much.

**  So you use the UCC search to find out what they have listed for their equity?

R. You don't even have to search.  You've got the name and address from the letter.  Just tell them you are going to sell their property for this much.

**  Secured debts under the UCC1?

R. Well just forget the UCC for now.  But you see you need to get the name of that person lined up and put it on a classified ad.  See you're the owner of the equity at that point.  You're selling the equity.  You're selling the equity under the name of that person for that much money.

**  Right it's mine, I accepted it.

R. Right, somebody could actually go and give you a check for that and if they do you give them a bill of sale.

**  Oh.  Okay

R. We might be able to use some of these closed accounts to do that.

**  Good that's another thing I wanted to talk to you about because this guy did use a closed account and they threatened him with prosecution of bank fraud.

R.  Oh okay you just go ahead an charge because you're going to have to charge my account in FACT to get the subject matter jurisdiction.    If you've issued a check, well they have to charge those electronic transfer numbers.   When they do that and it goes to the bank by electronic transfer, you see the account goes to zero.  They don't have any more criminal evidence.

**  Wouldn't it take it into FDIC, the insurance policy?

R. No it goes into the treasury direct.  It goes to ZERO.  See that bank account is on the internal part of the bank.   See that's in the trust company.   That's the Federal Reserve.  So when it goes into the Federal Reserve that shows it was void to start with.  Now it's back to zero again…now they don't have any criminal charges.  You know it's a joke here when they come and they say "Well we're going to come and charge your account".  Tell them "Go right ahead".   You see people go to prison because they threaten you with charges when you agree to the absence of the charges.  Then you're agreeing to a lie.  Now you're telling a lie and you're counterfeiting a security.  More clarity.   See they are telling you they are going to charge you with something but they don’t' have any charges.  Everything went to zero in fact.  Empty charges.   I'm not going to agree to the absence of the charge.  That would be recognizing the accuser.

**  So you really have to just agree to everything they come at you with?

R. Right

New subject:
RE:  A court case -
R:  It isn't an order that pays anything it is the warrant.  A case is not charged until money has changed hands.   See the order might be given but there is no issue of a warrant so there is no subject matter jurisdiction.  See because you have to have somebody with a warrant that recognizes the order.   So you see that's why we want to use the closed account and you want to have an open account that wind up in the same account.  Example:  Like an auction sale.  We got a guy that's got one coming up.   The way they're going to do this is they are going to have a guy at the auction that has an open account ..he's going to open a bank account just for the purpose of having an account he can draw on it just for purpose of bidding at the sale.  Then he's going to …and before we go to the sale…this is a foreclosure sale… so before he goes to the sale the guy that is being foreclosed on is going to write a contract with the guys there that are going to bid.  The contract is going to be for the purpose of them assisting him in redeeming the debt.  There has to be a purpose….

** Oh versus because they don't have a license to make assessments

R. That's right.   With that he is going to drop the contract in the mail for filing the morning of the auction and the guy that is going to bid the sale is going to write his check on an open account.  Now this account does not have a previous deposit.  But then that's standard because most people that go to auctions talk to their banker and tell them they're going and when they know how much the bid is they tell the banker and he clears the check when it comes.  Well in this case he is making a deal with the guy that is the owner of the land and that guy has a closed account.  So the guy with the closed account is going to buy the bid or he is going to buy the bill of sale from the successful bidder at the sale.

**  Oh so he's going to buy the bid…not the property?

R:  The guy that is being foreclosed on is going to buy his own property back in exchange for a bill of sale.  The guy that bid is going to take the draft with the electronic numbers from a closed account given to him by the one being foreclosed upon and deposit it into the account he opened to make the bid. One of them is the sponsor for the credit and the other is the credit bid.

**  Wow that is ingenious!!

** What happens if you someone has sort of built up a profile of controversy from before understanding this?  Is that going to jeopardize them in anyway of doing this now?

R:  Not really…. All he needs to do is write these guys and tell them "I've accepted all your offers you have made to me and I want it returned to me now as a remedy because you didn't provide one.  In the event you refuse to do this I will accept your dishonor for value and in that event you will have then, since you have refused to volunteer into the bankruptcy remedy then you have agreed in the alternative to the involuntary bankruptcy and now you're property is subject to be taken for liquidation of your assets to provide me settlement of this account."  And now based on that you can go ahead and say in the event you choose the latter, I hereby give you the request you provide me a list of all the property description that you have in your name.   I am now taking the equity here and placing it for sale to proceed to liquidate your personal property for settlement.   That's basically the position we go into… See that's what equity is.

**Okay!

R:  See that's what they've done to us.  That's what those internal revenue agents have done.  So you see this is how we have to move at it to turn them around.   They can't have any implied exemption at that point because they can't have an exemption when they have an outstanding obligation.  So now you've requested all the property they had that would be a discovery and their refusal is further evidence of involuntary.  But you see there is information…. I think there is software programs that you can find people all over the united States.  We can start using some of that and start taking these people apart at the seams.  Now you have to make the requests that they provide you with the remedy in bankruptcy and at that point the offer that they made …that offer is the charge as a matter of fact.  So now they have with that charge and your acceptance and return of that acceptance to them …now they have subject matter jurisdiction to enable them to provide them with settlement.  But if they don't do it now you see they have agreed to involuntary bankruptcy settlement.  This is binding them to the contract.  Now if you refuse you turn over all the description to all the property you hold in your name.  If you fail to do it I'm going to just sell all the equity that is under your name under a national listing.  Just go into a classified ad and advertise For Sale By Owner.   Avoid their lingo or language and terminology.  If you have like $32,000 say under this persons name why you just state that that you will sell.

**  Let's say that you sell it, how do you get it away from them?

R:  What do you mean?

**  Like their car, or whatever they show as assets?

R:  No No see the person that buys it you give them a bill of sale.  The person that has the bill of sale will then go to the sheriff to claim the property if it is not relinquished.  The buyer has the check and bill of sale.  That's enough for the sheriff.  That buyer than becomes the "holder in due course"  . Sure if someone has a checking account that check is like a warrant…

**  Okay lets say I find out this person making the offer refusing to acknowledge my acceptance has a $20,000 car, and the money order they sent me was for $3,000. But that is all I know about their property?

R:  Well now the guy who owns the bill of sale can go look for the car through the DMV.  You could have a friend of your look for it.

** Right after we do a few of these they'll start re-thinking of what they are doing to us.

R:  Right but see if you own real estate or some of the buildings that they have and you do this, …lets say you have an attorney doing this and the building they use as their offices and you take the property descriptions of that particular building and you offer it for say and they can holler all they want that they have legal title but you're holding equitable title.  You don't care what's on title at the court house.  This is equitable and there might be others that have a grievance against these jerks.  They might come in and say I'll bid this much for the property they may love having a sale like this.

**  Yea we can sell it at a discount….(chuckle)  sell their $20,000 car for $3,000… what a deal!  That's what they do to us when they foreclose.

** * Now we understand algebra (chuckle)

R:  Well that's just the overall or concepts…  but you see this is what we have to do to get at 'em.

**  What we've been working on is motion for Summary judgement in exparte'  idea….

R:  Yea?

***  What we worked on, we haven't got it to the point of filing yet…but the way we looked at it was the court case was a T account and that once they had the order and when we went to file they said it was closed, that they were closing the public end of that account but the other end of it was open, so when we come in with the order, and because we accepted it we're acknowledging the exchange--because it's crossed the line and it went back and it's done.  That's the way we're looking at it, because that's the payment ---like you were saying, the offer is the charge, it's accepted.

R:  uh-huh …Well you see to get the public policy to kick into gear I'm sure we have to have both of those accounts in the same  account to get it to zero.  Even if you only had a fee, that said the fee was only $20.00 and the check for the other side of the account was 10 million, that fee would still equal 10 million because it'll still bring it to zero.  See a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

***  Right right right

R:  There is your algebra!

** Leavening of the Pharisees

*** Right (chuckle)

R:  See that isn't true algebra.  That's just numbers, with algebra you have to have capitol.  Letters, see small numbers are negative draw off the parent the capitol letter.  So when you're dealing with algebra, and I suppose the idea of algebra is also the idea of vertical integration.  We're dealing over in the Asian world or Indian world.

** When we went into this summary judgement we're doing, we particular stayed away from arguing anything about the situation because that's closed. ..that's a public event.   We just focused on the fiduciary relationship of the attorney, the fiduciary in charge of the bankruptcy and the idea of involuntary bankruptcy in the order, we ordered them to settle and issue a certificate of the adjustment, and to issue the check as it were.  We went with the idea he had to issue two of them...One to settle it and one of them for the other side and then in the end for us.  And if he didn't do these things he would have to … he would be viewed and be charged and that he would be an ordered to appear and show cause as to why his license and his person should not be taken as collateral in reserve.  That was the direction we went.

R:  Okay..you're close enough to it.  See now what you can do, I would put him on and sell his property.  I would approach him with a request for discovery… of his property that's under his name.

** Before you'd ever take it in to an exparte'?

R:  Well the exparte' that's what you're doing, that's part of it.  He's got to give you a detailed list of his property because you've already got judgement on him and now you're going to sell the judgement.

** You don't even need the summary judgement you're already the owner.

R:  You've got the summary, the problem is the collecting on it.

**  Right… That's why we went with the idea of doing it this way because we felt… well we put at the top that it was hearing immediately.   So whoever reads it it's heard …whatever order they gave as it were would cover it… It's done.  We were seeing the order as the Money Order.

R:  Okay so that was the exparte order?  Well if you're going to issue the order, who is going to issue the warrant?

**  Well they already issued one order and we accepted that order and they already acted upon that order.

R:  See then you've got to issue a warrant.   See you can't issue the orders from two sides of the same jurisdiction because one side is venue and the other side is re-venue.  See and the order is only on one side.  So if you've got two orders you're still on one side so the order has got to be absorbed by the warrant.   Somebody has got to right a check.

**:  So we issue an order and the State would issue a warrant?

R:  Well yea but you see the State is the one that regulates bank accounts and has immunity as a matter of fact.  See the State has jurisdiction over the subject matter and the feds have jurisdiction over the fiction. Or form.  So you see the order comes out of the form.  …So the warrant issues out of that order.  We issue the warrant out of a closed account.

**  Okay got it.

R:  Okay now see if it's the other way around?  If they're coming here with say an order for sale, well what you can do is, …that's how come we're going to the auction sale with an open account.. see that's a public account--they'll recognize that.  They're going to figure that they're going to control  the execution of that.  But then when the bidder sells the bill of sale back to the owner and takes his check, see his check  is coming from the closed account.  That gives him the authority to stick that check from the closed account to the open one.  See that check from the closed account is the credit for the open one. ..and it is going back to the principal.

*** This is wonderful…
Now you see he has the bill of sale in his hands …oh so they sold to him…well he had his order buyers in the crowd.  See this is going back to the principal where it belongs.

*** Oh this is so clever…

R:  Yeah you see they tried to use this guys elderly parents against him.   They called all the notes of his grandmother and his mother and dad.  So what you see the bank called all the notes in and got a judgement against them.  The bankers are going against this whole family.  So the guy asked what do I do and I told him just work up an agreement you are going to buy it from them and do the same thing that you did on your property.  Just give them a check on that closed account you now have.

** So in other words They were trying to tie all the accounts in together without the authority?

R:  Well they are just trying to extort funds out of them and put them on the run.   So his dad then on the judgement sold the judgement to the son and the son can give him a bill of sale.  Now you see the son  has a bill of sale, and the dad has the check.  So now the judgement isn't going to be of any use to those that are trying to proceed against it.   Now it was sold to the son who has the equitable claims to the property so if they try to move on them.

** Now I just got a draft back and they told me "Your check wasn't any good so now there is an additional charge of $25.00."  should I tell them this is not a bank item it is a bookkeeping item or is that something I would just say on the phone?

R:  Oh just send them another draft for the $25.00 and don't tell them anything.  (chuckle)  They're doing that to create a new contract.   See the other one was good.   You could just stamp it for value and shove that back at them too.   Just give them a draft for the added check charge.

**The one doing the summary judgement on, the defendant is the one who got the order, that's why we were looking at doing it this way.  I know it's not necessary, but the summary judgement keeps coming up and coming from the plaintiff cause he's the one….

R:  Well the draft is the summary or it brings--- the draft just bring the closing of escrow, it's a tool for closing.

** Like a business plan?
** They've got the order and we bring them the warrant, like if they give the house to the wife then that places that in the attorneys hands to make that good.

R:  What's in the attorneys hands?

** Once you give them the warrant that would put the order up for liquidation…

R:  Why is the attorney there?

** She has an attorney and she's the one that got the order…. That's why we were going this route to tie him into this fiduciary relationship as far as adjustment, settlement, closing the account has all been accepted.

R:  Okay who sued for divorce?

**  He did

R:  He did, so which side are you talking about that you have control over.

*** Well that would put him as the executioner if he was the aggressor?

R:  Well he suing for divorce because of  breach of contract.  And you see if she's in breach and he tells her what he wants and when she refuses and he accepts the refusal and moves into the alternative of the involuntary bankruptcy proceedings.  Then he can liquidate the property that is on the other side.  Now she is the one with the attorney?

** Yeah

R:  Okay well he can liquidate the attorneys property and hers.  What you have to tell them ..  Just make a declaration that STRAW MAN name is bankrupt please provide the remedy, the product of your offer without cost immediately.  The offering is the attorney and whatever he is doing.  Now since you opted in the alternative, provide me a list of all your property and other assets so I can sell them for sale by owner and use your name to liquidate the equity and get my remedy.

** So you can actually do this, liquidate somebody assets or property …Like have it filed on the UCC1?..

R:  We're not bound by the public laws.  We're binding them in the conscience.  That's what equity is.  They can tell us all they want about this BS public stuff but it's all lies.  We're going to bind them to the truth and the fact of the matter.   So you see when we tell them that, so when we tell them and they refuse to provide us with remedy voluntarily.  When they refuse they have then contracted with you for involuntary bankruptcy.  Now you see everything under their name is subject to liquidation.

** wonderful

R:  So you just tell them that I'm going to list your name in the news paper For Sale By Owner and sell everything that is under your name up to all the equities to satisfy my remedy and list the amount.  Let people know.  If you can get a hold of the property description, then list it.   This is going to make it awfully tough on a law firm to have their staff showing up in the newspaper classified account that there equities are being liquidated.

** Oh formerly owned by Judge Roy Bean (joking)

R:  No I wouldn't use his title, just his name.  But I'd just tell them all the equities held by this person and put their name.

** Do you do a disclosure to the buyer about the seller?

R:  Well you don't even have to tell them anything.   See because he'll be an innocent "holder in due course".   He's an innocent buyer.   Yeah you see the UCC recognizes that.  See as long as he's innocent he's got title.

** Oh wonderful

R:  If the attorney wants to tell them then he wants to confess.  (chuckle)

*** chit chat**

Talking about a friend of Rogers
Why things fail when we go in to jail.
You see this is sort of an example of even though people always consciously know all the answers about the 3 magic questions and the request for the order.  But you see when you actually get charged, see what happens is you jump and your involuntary system comes into gear and that starts running it and it over rules sometimes your head.   I can see when they brought the indictment on him he, and laid it on the table, he was telling R all the things that happened, who did what , who said what, etc.  But he didn't touch that indictment, he didn't accept it.  They tried to press him with it again but he just ignored it.   So you see the thing that is basically wrong here, he's got to accept it and he has to give it back to them.   That has to happen to zero it out.  He didn't do that.

**  See this is what I feel really strong about.  I had a little workshop on Saturday from where we first started out and how this has become so streamlined and thinking back you forget so much about the basics.   Review is really important.   As simple as this is it is still very difficult to keep your mind and heart in alignment.  You always say just slow down and the mind will help you.

R:  Right see we have to go into the involuntary system because that is what runs things.  That's how come we have indirect contact with the outer world.   See that's how come you have indirect evidence.  See that is what is happening in direct examination and cross examination.  One is examining the conscience mind and the other is examining the unconscience.

***  Okay

R:  See that's how come the idea of these guys that say   YHVH that is suppose to be silence.  So what the hell are they doing trying to pronounce the name God for.

** Exactly.

R:  It's silent night… The night before Christmas.  Yeah the night before pay day.  The little man in the red suite comes.   Yeah and he's coming with nuclear fusions which is contraction.  Because that's the nuclear fusion  on the way back to the nucleas.  It's all contraction of the expansion of the politics.  But you see with a guy like my friend but his wife didn't like the idea of it so you have to keep up with the stuff to keep the philosophy going.

** As simple as it is when you have all the other influences here coming at you you have to stay focused and keep your involuntary system in alignment.

R:  See you don't realize which way you're going to jump until you're in the battle field.

*** Back to the idea of the draft being a summary judgement.  I was needing more specifics before going ahead with it.

R:  Well even once you've got it, we're getting into another mode here of collecting it.  See once we have it we have to tell them the remedy so you have to tell them you now have the evidence that they  did not volunteer .  and so now I'm accepting your refusal and returning it to you with instructions that now I accept your dishonor and it's now subject to involuntary settlement.  You've agreed now that I can liquidate your property.   Get this down in a couple of sentences and let them know this is the way it is!  You've agreed to the alternative and to authorize me to liquidate all the property under your name for settlement.   YOU DID IT.   I gave you the other option to do it voluntarily and you refused to do it.

** Oh this is wonderful.  This clears up a whole bunch of items we we're clear about regarding the bankruptcy.

R:  See when you give them the acceptance back the offer was the charge.  The offer was the criminal charge.  And when you accepted it and returned it to them, now they have the charge to discharge their duty…so they can do it voluntarily at that point.   If they refuse to do it now they have agreed to the alternative for you to take them in to the involuntary bankruptcy to liquidate all of their property for the settlement.

**We had a situation the other night that this guy had his van towed.  He was originally pulled over because he had a New Jersey license but he had a plastic cover over it and that is apparently against the law in Calif.  After they did the shake down they decided his international license wasn't legal because he could obtain one over the internet etc so they took his van which was in order as far as registration, insurance, etc.  They should of taken him to jail instead of steal his van out from under him.   Anyway the next day we went to get it from the police.  They had a sign up on the counter of the $100 fee.  I commented to the desk officer if this was in line with public policy?  He responded No it was for the donut fund.   Then the towing yard charged another $126.    Is there anyway he can get them to return his funds?

R:  Sure… He's just got to request the remedy.  Tell them I want a return of the funds paid because the person who is making the claim has been accepted and returned and now it is a taxable item.  In the event he refuses …. See now the acceptance of the offer is equivalent to the amount claimed.  So the acceptance is the return so in the event you do not return or otherwise fail to settle the matter you have agreed to involuntary bankruptcy and I will proceed to sell your personal property for the settlement of my remedy.

***  Oh something funny.  Down in Texas they raided this guys house for simulating legal process and they had a warrant that said to take all his legal books, computer, documents.  Fortunately they took all his material but left the Interpretive Writings which was the thing he was studying the most.

**On a quick note… with the involuntary process we started to study the civil was because you use the word confederacy a lot so we started to study some of the material and we noticed the 14th amendment and it says the public debt should not be questioned or they would loose their license.  Then we looked at the 16th amendment and it says that income shall be taxed from whatever source derived.

R:  Well you see the 16th amendment having to do with the black franchise, but you see that was not the real issue because it was the fugitive slave act that was interstate pact here between the states and they would pursue a debtor anywhere.  So the debtor was the slave.

Continuation of 4-23-01 Conversation with Roger

**On a quick note if you've got another minute I just want to ask you, we have been studying this stuff and thinking about it a lot and with the involuntary bankruptcy idea and the voluntary bankruptcy idea we started looking at this with the idea that the Civil War and that kind of stuff.  We noticed you use the term confederates and that's what lead us there.  The way we looked at it was it seems involuntary bankruptcy would be  like the Civil War where the Confederates well the North had foreclosed on the Confederates.  ..and the voluntarily bankruptcy HJR-192 as Public Policy and we were looking also at the 16th amendment and we're realizing all this is set up for our benefit. Because the 14th amendment addresses it by giving power to corporations and the 4th clause says the public debt shall not be questioned.  We started realizing that must be private credit.  Then we went over and looked at the 16th amendment and say …"income from whatever source derived"…Well that's where their tax liability comes in.

R:  Right

**Because if we're the source because we're the owner no matter what we do this is it.

R:  Yeah, but you see the 16th amendment having to do with the black franchise …

**  You mean the 14th?

R:  Right, yeah the 14th.  You see that was not the real issue.  It was the Fugitive Slave Act that was interstate pact between the states.  You see that they would pursue a debtor anywhere.  So the debtor…that was the slave.

** We realized that when they put the first clause when they talked about "persons".  There system is used that they talk about why corporations can do all this stuff.  Well since we know that corporations don't exist except by questioning the public debt when they question us we say that as part of what is going on here.

R:  Yeah

**  And one other thing we noticed in the 13th amendment it brought up "There shall be no involuntary servitude.."  When they took the oath of office they volunteered into the servitude.

R:  Right!  And you see when they refuse to volunteer then you see it's Involuntary.  But you see it's not in the public.  It's now PRIVATE.

**  They're using their public license to go private.

R:  Right and that's why I said you can't do the bankruptcy filing… we just declare it privately.

** Okay and that brings it back into the involuntary bankruptcy at the original idea.  In other words, what's happened is the empowering the corporations is it essentially.

R:  Yeah… that's right and see now we're right back to where the confederate states were.  See they were financing everything in equity.  And see the Feds were wanting to bring in the Union.  The Union here with the Regulatories! …the Tories …statutory.

** Oh the English
** How I look at that.  In Christ's age they released Barabbas at the Passover knowing that he was a confederate.  So how I see it relating in today's society is when they pass over us they release a known confederate to hold Christ hostage.

R:  Yeah… because Barabbas means Bar Rob Us.  …chuckle

**  Oh the attorney as the bar is robbing us…. More chuckles
**  Oh also the word Patriot….   Pa (pay) tri (3) o or ought = zero.  Or you can look at it is patriots pay 3 times for nothing.   We're suppose to look for unity and it's the confederates that divide and conquer.

R:  Pay 3 or M3 also a way to look at it.

**  Like when we go into debt to buy a house or farm or something like that, by the time you're done paying for it with 10% interest over a 30 year term you've paid for it three times. Coming from a debt mentality we are used to being "A Loan".

R:  Well we've got to start spelling due process as "DO" process.

** anything going on with the bank where you put in all your "un-used checks" done anything for you?

R:  Well I haven't really put in any one particular thing here.  We've just done a couple of things here to test them out.  But some of the guys… Like on a one to one.  Just like I told this one guy here take this over to the bank and draw on this account to overdraw on the account.  It will show up as a zero.  The bank makes two entries. They are not going to show it out here, you're going to have to over draw the account and then they have an account they said that will show as overdraft protection.   Well then I told him to go beyond that amount.  Run it up far enough to see whether they show Public Policy or if they are going to try and make a claim.   You're not going to find out unless you press them on it.

**  Oh  ** tell him about the gal and her situation at the bank.
** Well what happened is the district attorney started coming after her and she was just accepting everything and then they dropped it.

**  Didn't she write a bunch of drafts that cleared?
**   Not sure about that but she's on disability.. she's got that public contract so she's captured her straw man. She used acceptance and when she used acceptance with the agency.  The agency ended up giving her all the benefits.  She didn't have to pick one she got them all.   What happens is she ended up making a deposit of a bill of exchange and they decided to close her account but the monies from her disability are still coming in.

R:  Sure

**  Well they've got a problem

R:  Sure they do … she can just keep writing the draft..

**  That's what she's doing and she is actually using her own checks.

R:  I know --I know--- I do that on my own. See I'll tell you something… When that check goes in --the bank stamps it on its face "NOT PAID"  and then they check it the reason being "closed".  Then after checking it they send it back.  Okay so then when they tell you it's not paid.  Well the reason it's not paid is the account is "ZERO".   Now isn't that good news?

** Uh Hum  except sometimes they go "Non Sufficient Funds"

*** Well the reason why is because it's closed and they haven't got the ability to over draft it unless you press it.

R:  Right  and not only that it absorbs the criminal charge.  In other words if this guy would have had one of these bank accounts when they wanted the tow charges etc he could have just wrote them a check.

*** Yeah but these police agencies will only take cash or money order or credit card.

** Well then they need to go to the inter-district(?) I believe.  Yeah I think it is inter-district settlement fund.  That's what they do.  All the banks using the inter district settlement fund.  They settle it between each other by just balancing the books at the end of the day.  It's a board.

R:  Yeah if it goes into that fund.  Or you see they'll use that to divert the claim and raise a new issue again. See that's the scourge of those damn things.

**  Like the tax form is 1120 SF.  It's a tax form for the settlement fund.  I don't know if that would help or not.  It's a tax form for the  clearing house fund.

R:  Well it might.  But you see those clearing houses are opportunities for mischief.  Because otherwise we have the electronic fund transfer number.  You see I wrote some of those checks off my account for some California accounts.  See the reason I wanted to do that was I'm in a different Fed. Res. District.  So I knew some of those banks out there were going to have to use those Electronic funds transfers.  And once they do that you see they don't have any subject matter jurisdiction to come after anybody.  Once they try to charge that account and it goes to zero and they loose their criminal charges.
Laughter

R:  Why?  Because it goes back into the Fed. Res.  Now the principal has got it all back.  See they've got to have some debts here to hold on to somebody…. They loose them all. More laughter….

R:  See people using checks like this you've got to watch them because they try to use a fake action that they presented it for payment.  They haven't presented it for payment because they haven't charged the account.   I had a talk with the Secret Service about that.

** Okay…

R:  and we talked about where do we identify them with having delinquent contraband or taxes in there possession.  It is when you give them the check (draft) and they refuse to charge the account using the electronic funds transfer.  At that point you see is where we have identified who has the delinquent tax revenue in their possession.

**   Hey did you say not to or it was okay to take cash off a credit card?  Not to because it would create a contraband suspicion?

R:  Under the credit cards, but if you're paying these and using your account you're turning it into M3.  It is debt otherwise.

**  Okay if you take money off the credit card and have it put into your checking account?  That wouldn't be considered drug money at that point would it?

R:  No you just go ahead because you're paying it off here with your draft.  You have to be taking responsibility that it's coming from the principal.  But you see they are going to try and keep it and assume that there are third parties that have claims on that.  That is really what we mean when we refer to drug money is somebody else has an interest in that.  So that means you're admitting that's somebody else's property.

** Oh I see…okay

*** Wow this has been a wonderful conversation.  Every time I talk to you each conversation is more enlightening.  I think it is because we understand them better and Thank you so much.

***   This is not quite the end but there will be more later….  The conversation is on another topic.