*  Hi Roger.....(Small Talk)....

* I had the probation officer on the stand, after the prosecution had asked their questions. The judge turns to me and asks, "Do you have any questions for the witness?" , and I said "Yes", and I asked the questions, "May I have your name please?", Do you have a claim against me?, Do you know anyone who has a claim against me?, and everything went smoothly as far as that goes, the probation officer had no idea really what I was talking about, and then I looked at the judge and I said "I have no further questions at this time, I request the order of the court be released to me immediately", and the judge looked at me and said "I don't know what your talking about", and then I .....(Roger stepping in)

Roger : It doesn't make any difference.

*  Well what do you mean, go ahead....

Roger: It doesn't make any difference here what he says. Go ahead, because....

*  O.K., well, what happened was the judge said "Do you have anything else to ask?"  Then I turned to the judge and asked "Do you have a claim against me?" and he said "No", and I asked "Do you know anyone who has a claim against me?" and he says in a stalling kind of tone "I'm not going to keep answering these questions, if you have nothing else to say, i'm going to set a date for sentencing", and I responded once again with "I request the order of the court be released to me immediately". Again he repeated, "I don't know what your talking about", and he asked "do you have anything else to say?" and I replied back "There being no one to come forward with a first-hand claim and testify against me, I request the order of the court be released to me immediately", and he said, "I don't know what your talking about, I'm going to remand you to custody pending sentencing". And he did that, and I got taken into custody and I was held for ten days. My date for sentencing was set for two weeks later, and I had to hire an attorney that knew the judge by some wierd coincidence, and I came to find out they had a psychiatric evaluation scheduled.....

Roger : Oh Yeah, see, there's all kinds of things in the background see. They assign the commercial bond in the background.

*  (Repeating Roger) They assign the commercial bond in the background.

Roger:  Oh yeah, yeah. They went into "emergency", and that was brought out of the emergency war powers. But they still had to assign the bond somewhere.

*  What did I do wrong? (But Roger was speaking at the same time and says "The attorneys holding the bond now". )

* What was that?

Roger: The attorney you hired is holding the bond now. See, it's that contract that they are relying on now to prosecute you. So you entered voluntarily into that contract. The other way around here, you see, they have people crawling around in the background here that were at risk. .......  But until you contracted.

*  It seemed like they were bent on doing whatever they were gonna do.

Roger :  Oh. Yeah, they were!  ...  But you see, what i'm saying is, is when you started out on your venture, you put them at risk! And now they're running and hiding and trying to threaten you, and they're operating in methods of extortion without tort insurance.

*  Well I just don't know how to deal with that properly well enough....(Roger: Yeah, I know).... through enforcement, I guess, to be confident enough to stick through it that far....(Roger: Yeah)....but, I didn't think that they would even go that far, and be able to hold me, having done all that already....(Roger: Nobody knows that, until you, uh, ... go at it with them......You don't know but they are extortionists)

*  Oh, yeah, I understand......

Roger:  And they are the most repulsive people on the face of the planet. They're thieves. They live on theft here, you see.

*  That's absolutely true....  How, may I ask you, would you have gone about something like that, at the point where they would have just taken you into custody, and you'd be sitting there and dealing with it?

Roger:  Well I damn sure here wouldn't have hired an attorney.

*  Ok. I understand.

Roger:  O.k? So your over on the other side of the account when you do that.

*  Yeah, I understand that.

Roger:  Well, then I ....There's alot of things here that we could 'pick away at'.....cause you have to........    See, they've assigned the bill, or the bond somewhere in the background. Away from probably who was in that courtroom seeing, they've got.....  When he mentions he's gonna take you into custody, he's got 72 hours to make a financial arrangement, and that's what they did, but they did it in the background. So what happens, is that.....

*  Well they didn't do it within... I mean I didn't hire a lawyer for a while.

Roger: Yeah, I know.

*  All that time went by.....(Roger stepping in : How much time did you let go by before you hired him? ) ....  Oh it was uh....(Thinking about it.....)  Let's see... I was in on a wednesday.... Yeah it could have been towards the end of the weekend. It could have been kind of iffy, like right in between there, but uh...but as far as ... the court should have released me because I didn't actually have contact (correction), the court didn't have contact with the attorney, I don't believe, within the 72 hours....I don't think the attorney had contact with the court within that 72 hours, because I was in custody from wednesday morning, and then thursday morning, friday morning, saturday morning, sunday morning....

Roger: That's what I wanted to know.

*  He didn't even contact the court until at least.... (Roger: How do you know? ) ..Monday. At least Monday. (Roger: How do you know?)....  Because it was all weekend and everything, the court was clos..... (Roger: Who contacted him?).....  My Mom.

Roger: When did she contact him?

*  Towards the end of the weekend, I believe. I can't say for sure, but I could find out.

Roger:  Well was it within that 72 hours?

*  I don't think so, but it could be.

Roger:  Well if it was, you see, that locked it in right there. he's not gonna tell you here, he's the enemy.

*  Well you know what's interesting actually, I thought i'd bring this up to you, is that he understood what I was doing. This attorney. He knew about.... I don't know if he knew about the whole thing. I don't think he studied your process that intently, but he understood 'accepted for value', the Strawman, the claim, doing what I was doing, but he also made a comment that you'd have to be crazy to use that in court, or to think that that's going to work in court, or in a criminal matter. He made the comment, but other than that, he seemed supportive and understood where I was coming from.

Roger:  ...(couldn't understand first word or two)..criminal matter... He's trying to gain your respect here, and still shoot down here, "oh you got to be crazy do do that in court".....

* Yeah, well I would expect he would say something like that....

Roger:  Oh yeah... See those guys, that's the way they're trained. And he's a double-agent. He'll cut your throat here in a heartbeat. I don't care who he is, if he's an attorney. And uh, he's the one they use here to operate in the enemy camp. What you need to do... Well are you going to trial?

*  Well no. What happened was, fortunately, I'm out of it for now, and i'm gonna stay out of it for a while. I got the probation reinstated, i'm going to go do the stupid classes, I'm going to go deal with it because they don't want alot from me. I don't think they want to send me to jail in this case. They just want to get me out of their system....

Roger:  Well they want the probation officer here to hold you as collateral in the accounts here, for the money they spend.

*  Yeah. I understand what your saying there. I have accepted it all for value, and I've done all that stuff, and I met the probation officer and he's a very nice person. He comes from where i'm coming from (meaning he used to partake of cannabis).. to a large degree, he's not 'out to get me'. I can already tell that. I know that he's not going to "try" to violate me or give me a hard time or anything, it's not even really probation officially.

Roger: Is he federal or state?

*  State. And he's a young guy. He's not very interested in..... He even told me "I was kind of rooting for you there in court, but I didn't understand what you were asking me or what you were doing. And I believe him, he was looking at me square in the eye.  (Roger starting in confidently:  Oh, he knows!  He would not have that job if he didn't know. (*Uh huh).. Don't come with that, don't be sucked in here with that. (* O.k.).. Those guys tell you they don't agree here. Well, if they didn't know what you were doing, you'd be loose right now. But they do know. And that's why your still in the grip. Because they're bringing on their first line troops now.

*  Well at this point I can see that they're going to leave me alone as long as I jump through one hoop that they've got for me, and it's not that big of a hoop.

Roger:  Well they may, and they may not.

* Yeah, yeah. Well I expect, and I'm hoping at this point that they will. But if they come at me again, I'm going to have to go back to my beliefs and stand firm in my understanding of the process.

Roger:  Well it isn't a matter of standing firm... You need to be gathering information for any future showdown. It'll come though. It'll come.

*  One thing I'm curious about, and I think is very important and I'm not sure how important it is, but you've mentioned over and over again the "direct examination" vs the "cross examination".

Roger:  Well, you, did allright in there. But you see, these guys are now, from what we can ...  We could win hands down here, a year ago performing like you did in there. But you see now they're getting trained to take on the efforts here that we've put 'em to in court.. (* Uh huh) ... But you see, so now, we have to focus on getting into the national computer, as to where the warrants are held. And we get in there with the commercial, uh, exchange, which would be uh, electronic transfers, and when they try to make the electronic transfers like when they're moving that bond around....(*uh huh)... And that's what they did. They've assigned that bond here to somebody that they didn't have to disclose the bond numbers to the national computer so that the computer here would cause the redemption of the debt. O.k.? (*: O.k.) ... So you see, that's what they're doing. These are the people that, the accountants that are coming on, doing the manipulation here of the bond. And these guys here, when you get them in a showdown in court..... When they take you into custody, they didn't arrest you. They just took you into custody. O.k.? .. Because if they arrest you they have to book you.

* They did. They booked me. They put me through the whole thing. That's what was very surprising to me.

Roger:  Well, I don't think so. (Roger sounds 75% confident here when he says this, but says it in a questioning way)... You were telling me, they told you, they were going to take you into custody. Oh they took me into custody, and they kept me there, and transferred me to the regular jail, they booked me in.

Roger:  What jail?

*  Men's central jail. Downtown Los Angeles. Twin Towers

Roger:  Yeah I know. But you see, a booking... If a bounty hunter brings in a delinquent debtor, there's a booking here that you can't get information on.

*  Oh, your not talking about the booking that i'm thinking about when I go in there and I give them the fingerprint and they type the stuff in the computer....(Roger interrupting:  That's right!).. Your talking about a seperate booking?

Roger:  It's not a booking. You see, and what i'm saying is cautioning people here on using those terms. Because being taken into custody here is not being booked on a warrant. Did they serve a warrant on you?  (*: No) .. Well then you were taken into custody, there wasn't any warrant. Why?  Somebody issued an "order". Well you see, for a public officer to act on a warrant, there also must be an "order" for the warrant. There must be an "Order" and a "Warrant", both. Well in this case here, there was an "order" but there wasn't any warrant.

* Right. How would you get the remedy from that issue right there

Roger:  Well there's lots of ways of doing it.

*  Well one of the things that B* has mentioned is the Habeas....( Roger cutting me off:  I'm not in the habit of giving people information here, just "general".  If you were actually proceeding towards the 'end result' right now, maybe I could give it to you. But you see, you've contracted out so it won't apply.

*  Well i'm still very interested in learning....

Roger:  Yeah, well, because the item here means taking your acceptance and prosecuting it to where you can, well you could give "public notice" on a uh, in a classified ad in a newspaper. Yeah you could do that.

*  "Public Notice" of?? My acceptance??

Roger:  Of the "Acceptance" and your return of that "acceptance" to them, cause when you return the "acceptance", your returning to them here, the tax (return), that's a "tax return". And it dosn't have to be dollars here, it could be the tax return here of an "order", of a "work order", or a "money order", or a "purchase order", or a "court order" for some performance. But when you return that, you see, with the "acceptance" of the order, and you see, what they're doing here, they're ordering you to perform in certain things, and you have that probation officer there that's there to see that you do it. And the probationary period, is not for you, but it's for, the probationary period is the period of time that they have to return to you your property. That's what a true probationary period is, that's what the probation is for. (* : That's interesting).. These people here are holding commercial portfolios. Investments here that they hold in their accounts. Your the collateral on it. So you see, when you were asking for a return, or a release of the "order of the court" to you.... (* : Right)... Well they wanted to stay as far away from admitting that they knew what that was, as they could. Because, handing to you, you being the owner of the account, a "fiduciary" would have to operate for your benefit then.

*  Well I wrote him a little letter, at the end, and I had it in my pocket, and I figured I would give it to him in case I got railroaded, and the last time I was in court he warned me to look up some things. One was "contempt of court", one was "sanctions", and also "abuse of process". I had those things defined there, and I also had a couple of things.... I had a "private notice, Do Not File" on it, and I had the bailiff give it to him, and it said basically that "My understanding is that you are my fiduciary in possession of my tax return, and that I have accepted this for value and the only other matter here is the adjustment of my account, and if you are going to continue then you are involved in barratry and stuff as a co-conspirator along with the prosecutor, and such and such, but afterwards my friends that were there, my mom, girlfriend and another good friend of mine noticed that the judge kind of turned cold and pale when he read it and didn't expect something like that , I guess. They said it seemd like he was visibly shaken.

Roger: Yeah, Yeah. But there's ways of getting at them, because what they do, they make a "private claim" on you, and your "accepting" it privately, so when you return it to them, your not getting the effect here that your after. Because your assuming that they're making the claim on you from a "public office", and from a "fiscal accounting". But they're not doing that, they're coming at you here from a "calender accounting".

* From a calender accounting?

Roger: Yeah. So when you "accept" as a calender, and return it to them, it's still a calender, and see, so you don't get any "offset". So you see that 's why we have to take it and give a "public notice" through a newspaper in a classified ad. But you see, that just won't do it, you can't just go and pay for it here, you have to pay for it here with a draft, and draw down on your personal account, you can't just....

* You think their going to look at that as the difference?

Roger: They're not going to have anything to look at. Because the alleged warrant, or the account that would be posted in the national computer goes ot zero. Now you see, it destroys all the evidence that they have here to bring their claim on you. They're finished. When that happens here, I've seen people released from prison here, "right now". And if it happens that they get the word here in the middle of the night, that's wehen they get released here, and they're standing out there in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night.

*: When what happens? When the computer gets the information? What are you saying?

Roger: When you get that transaction, passes into the national computer, it brings the account to zero.

*  How can we track when that happens or how that happens?

Roger:  Well, if your in custody, and you do it here, you'll know because they'll throw you out so fast it'll make your head swim. They're in a panic. That's why the judge turned pale when he read what you had wrote him here, because you had him on the verge of it, right there. You don't know here how close you were, they get really, really uptight when someone takes them to that point you did.

*  Yeah, well, it seemed like he was really upset.

Roger:  Yeah, but you see, they think that they can work behind the scenes, nobody knows their bookkeeping. And they just go and they assign these accounts.

*  My court date was set before I ever spoke to an attorney. That was set for two weeks ahead. They had me planned to sit there for two weeks as far as I know.

Roger:  Well, yeah. Maybe and maybe not. But you see, they always make records look like something here so that they... but never here as to what they're really doing. Their masters of deception here. All they deal with is smoke and mirrors.

* Do you feel like, briefly, or to any degree telling me how you would go about ordering up a Habeas if you were locked up.

Roger:  Well no, because you don't have a reason to do it right now. I'm not in the habit here of general conversation here, I've been in here longer than my sense tells me I should.

* Longer into what?

Roger:  The conversation here with you. (* Oh). You've really gotten here more than your entitled to, you see, that's what causes people to go off half-cocked, and so I should not be giving you too many of the inside machanics.

*  Ok, well, I do appreciate what you have shared with me.

Roger:  The Writs of Habeas here are really the "acceptance" and "return". When you tell them what remedy you want, when you make that return here that is a "Writ". A writing. A writ just means a writing, a documented writing.

*  O.k, well I don't want to take up any more of your time, I've gotten most of the answers that I need right now.

Roger: You see, when your telling them to release the "order of the court", the "order of the court" here is the order for your body. That's the Writ of Habeas Corpus. You already prosecuted it, and they denied it. Now when they denied it, now we are going to put them to being a witness against themselves. This isn't over yet.

*  By raising that writ.

Roger:  Yeah. And don't get too comfortable around those P.O.s or any of them here, because they're intent here is just to keep you quiet here to make their portfolio stand out nice and easy so they don't have to do any work. But believe you me here, they will put you away here if they possibly can. If you don't jumo through every little hoop that they've got. Because when you turn on them here with what you did with the judge here, they've got serious consequences, for what they're doing, you see, because they operate outside the law, all the time. They're extortionists. You know why? Because they don't carry "Tort Insurance". And that's the same kind of insurance that they're telling you you have to carry here when you drive an automobile. Those people driving those automobiles here are not responsible. You know why?  Because you and I can't collect on their liability insurance.

*  Because all we get is debt?

Roger:  Right. So you see, they don't carry "Tort Insurance". O.K., that's one thing here that you can tell your P.O., that these people here that have maligned you, you see, are not responsible in commerce. So you see, the day is coming here when they'll all be on the line for it.

*  One thing the prosecutor, or actually, the attorney that I hired, did make a comment to me when I was sitting in the cell, waiting to see the judge to be released. He says, "now don't blow it, you know, you have made a name for yourself in this courthouse. Your imfamous here. Everyone knows who you are" and another comment to that effect. But he wanted to make me feel like, when he made the comment... I asked him "well what for", and he said "for screwing up so bad". I don't think it was for that, I think it was for some other things, but i'm not sure.

Roger:  Oh no, cause we had a guy who did something like you did here, and his attorney got called by the judge, and this was a federal court over in Santa Ana, and he caused a real ruckus the day he was in there, and when his attorney came over to see the judge, he had to come down to see the guy within the 72 hours. (hard to hear)...was there, I noticed and he gave the kid the copy of the docket sheet that showed here that when they moved the distress warrant in that court, he was the one that moved it..... That "minute order" the judge issued in there, recognized his movements in the court there as the "government" and referred to it as the "government's motion".  (* : Wow!)  .. You see, and not only that, the attorney told him, he said, and the judge told me, that you need to go and see this young man before the noon of that day. You know? Which he did. "This young man has done his homework".  In other words, the judge was warning the attorney here, be careful.

*  Well yeah, I have plenty of faith in the understanding of my knowledge and what your teaching, and what your talking about, however, when it comes down to what I was dealing with it was probably the right decision.

Roger:  But you see, you'll find out that those things in there are easier to deal with than getting in bed here and accepting what these characters are doing. These guys are the ones out there who have created those conditions. Why? Because of their enforcement here of the debt exchange here and preventing the "redemption" here of the debt. So it is the "debt" environment here that has caused all the problems with the schools and everything and detached and divided the families, everything. Those are the people who are responsible for the negative effects of all that.

*  Yeah, something that was interesting, and I'm sure you recognize this stuff all the time, but I saw something in the paper the other day about the "cole destroyer" and they talked about the murders and how they were going to be "held accountable", and it just kind of ringed true to me one more time, that there it is "account", right in the middle of our daily conversation, and how they are going to be held "accountable" for the murderous acts.

Roger:  Yeah, well you see, they uh, entered into and took on and did an "execution" of law here without being licensed. So you see it was still an execution and when you do that without license here they call it murder. It wasn't a CEO. If he'd have been a CEO and done it here with the "orders" of the system then they don't call it murder. It's execution. By an executioner. That's what a CEO is. An "executive officer". That's what an "executive officer" is.

* Right, right. .. You give some really powerful insights Roger. I really appreciate that. I Learn alot from the transcripts and information.

Roger: Yup, yup. You'll probably learn alot here yet. As long as your that close to the P.O., observe every little thing that these people do

* Well he seemed to want to be a friend. He didn't seem like he was hostile.

Roger: Get all the information out of him here that you can.

*  Like put some of my questions forth, and find out if he's holding the bond, or ?

Roger: You see, what he's got to remember here, that we are in the business of fulfilling every aspect of the law. We're not refusing anything, but the people here that have refused to stay within the law, those are the people who are accountable for the debt. They are the real debtors.

*  And they are the ones in "dishonor".

Roger:  Yeah, Yeah.

* Well thank you very much Roger, and have a good weekend. Goodbye.

*Roger:  Goodbye