*  Hi Roger, How are you doing?

Roger:  Good

*  I have been involved in the movement for around 7 years or so, and studying sovereignty and I've learned alot about the different things going on so I'm up to speed to some degree, but I've got a bunch of problems hitting me because, I think, because I'm a political target right now, and they keep coming after me. So let's see, I've been following your stuff for around a year now, and basically, I'm just getting alot of contradictory information. I haven't been able to get the questions I need answered.

Roger: How broad are the questions? Well see, usually when you don't get your questions answered, they're pretty broad here, and somebody's being asked to speculate here on a broad area.

*  Oh yeah, they can't answer them, and it seems nobody can. Ron Lutz is very informed and very knowledgable about this, but I question sometimes, how much of his past of information that he's using in relation to common law that is being mixed in with it, and i'm trying to get this stuff distilled and seperated and get a really good understanding of where your coming from.

Roger:  Well, one of the constant in what i'm doing here, is "change". You see, it's not going to be....  People think here that it gets down to steps here, and we can take these steps and that's the way it works, and it don't. Well, anyway get on with it here, we don't have time tonight.

*  One of the things that i'm wondering, doing the Acceptance for Value with your Birth Certificate, if that's even very important. I first did mine for $1,000,000, when we were first learning this, because that's what we were learning, am I didn't do a 1040 ES voucher, and I'm concerned, so I'm wondering how important that really is.

Roger:  Well, when we actually did that, we did it to do away with these, well, I would say, members of the Bar, but it might be a broader than that. People using your name here as a Tax Exemption. Without your consent or knowledge. And so, what that was here was a method that we used to create a fact that would do away with an assumption, here on things going on that we didn't know anything about. So it, it wasn't like your going to see any specific remedies except here, that in some cases, and in mine, there were things here that were going on in my accounts here that had to be changed and to force the change here, and i'm not going to get into any of that, but that's really all that was for. There was too much, how do you get something done about it, cause when people started looking into, and getting comments from us on how and what we were doing, pretty soon, all of the sudden here, this is getting sold here as a program.

* Right. .. And that wasn't it at all.

*  Right. It is more of an understanding, and an application of that understanding.

Roger: Yeah. and that's how we rolled with it. But, basically, if you get into a wrestling match, your not gonna be able to rely on some of that stuff here. I filed this and we get those results. It don't work that way.

*  Now one thing alot of people did was they attached that to the UCC-1 when they filed and the fact that they had accepted their Birth Certificate for value and had put that along with it as part of the attachment when they filed their UCC-1. Was that significant at all?

Roger:  Oh Yeah!. That's pretty... You see, what you have to do is take a position. And the position is that HJR-192 holds here that there is no money in circulation. You see, it did away with money. It stated that they must discharge their duties dollar for dollar. They can't discharge here, a dollar for something. It's a dollar for dollar. So you see, what we're doing is when we "accept" and they don't give us a negotiable instrument...then there's no negotiation. When they don't give us a negotiable instrument..see if they made a claim on you...if people made a claim on you, and also gave you a negotiable instrument with it, then all you would have to do is endorse the instrument and give it back to them. *  Right. ...

Roger: A negotiable one. So, when they didn't give you a negotiable instrument, then you have a non-negotiable.

*  And that's where you draw up the Bill of Exchange?

Roger:  Well, we "Accept" it, and turn it back to them. That's the exchange. Their offer is a "Bill". And when we return it to them, it's a "Tax Return".

*  Is there any purpose to providing the Bill of Exchanges that people are sending along with their "Acceptances", the stamped copy, left blank, along with their acceptance paperwork?

Roger:  What do you mean a stamped copy left blank?

*  Well, people have been, for a while now, several people have been advocating sending a blank Bill of Exchange, with the value left blank, but with that person as the debtor, with their name, like the judge, doing business as (DBA), all real and personal property, and sending the Bill of Exchange, but leaving the value left blank, and marking it "copy", showing them that that's the copy that's going to be used, for the, on their dishonor.

Roger:  Well, if your speaking about those instruments, then you go to the people who authored them. You see, because I don't know anything about 'em.

*  So you don't advocate sending any form of a Bill of Exchange, marked say, "Non-Negotiable", or any of that stuff?

Roger: Well, I don't do those, so I don't know, see. It isn't a matter here, I not saying it's not alright, but I'm just saying here, that I don't use those.

*  Do you think it's wise to even bother showing a judge your UCC-1, that you've done, a certified copy, or something?

Roger:  Well, why are you talking about the judge?

*  Well, if your involved in a case like I am right now where I have them coming after me and up until this point, I've had an attorney, but he's not dealing with it right now, because I ended up doing a plea bargain, i'm currently on probation, and they wanted me to report back after going to a program for a certain amount of time. There was no need to do that, I had accepted the case for value and sent it back to them. The charges.  I had sent back the paperwork they put a minute order out for me to appear in court to explain the paperwork. I didn't appear. I sent it back to them "Accepted for Value", and they put a warrant out for my arrest. Recently, I was picked up on that warrant, and extradited back down to Los Angeles, where I appeared before the judge. Briefly, and he basically just agreed, before I even said anything, I just let him know at that point, I had told the public defender's office to get off my case, and I'm going to represent myself, whatever, when they came to visit me in the cell....

Roger:  Is that what you told them?

*  Yeah. I had already sent it back to the public defender, "Accepted for Value", the case. And I came before the judge really quick and he said I'm going to relaese you on your recognizance if you agree to sign a paper agreeing to come back in thirty days to explain your paperwork.

Roger: Oh! Okay. ... But you see, you're explaining your paperwork, he's assuming there that your going to be a witness. You see, what happens here, are there are only two kinds of people in court. If your a witness, your going to get the shaft.

*  And being a witness, making any direct statements, instead of asking....

Roger: Identifies....Yeah, Identifies you as the defendant. All defendants here get the railroad shaft.

*  When the judge is directing his questioning at you... Like the first question he asked me was, "Are you sure you want to represent yourself pro per?", That was the very first question...

Roger: Well sure, he's qualified.. (or qualifying)...

*  Is he making an offer with that very question and trying to get me into the jurisdiction just by asking a simple question like that?

Roger:  Probably.

*  Well, when I said "yes", he then said, "well, I will agree to release you on, (backstepping) the warrant went out because of such and such, and you filed this rather unusual paperwork, and we wanted you to explain it, and you didn't appear and so the warrant was issued.....(Roger: Well, you see...) ... if you will agree to come back in a month to explain it, ... and he never gave me any paperwork to sign either....

Roger:  Oh, no, no. He knows here that you've got enough here going, but you see, don't direct your stuff at the judge, direct it at the guy who's bringing the charges on you.

*  The prosecuting attorney. (Roger: Yeah!) ...the D.A. (Roger: He's the one that's holding the bond.)

Roger: He's the one that's holding the charges. The judge is just reading the evidence.

*  Okay. Well, there's been two different D.A.s on the case, and only one of them I have sent the acceptance to, and the one I sent it to was not the one that was there. The other one was the one that was there.

Roger: That's Right!! You see they are going to play that little game here, because these guys here are the ones here that can't afford to have you examining them in court.

*  So now I should also follow through and make sure that the other D.A. who hasn't received it, should also get one too?

Roger: Oh yeah! Give him a copy of it, and not only that here, but you can let the judge know that you are going to call two witnesses, and those are the two guys you are going to call. You're not going to call the prosecutor.

*  I'm not going to call the prosecutor?

Roger:  No. You're going to call Joe Blow, who says he's the prosecutor. Don't call him here by his title.

*  Call him by his name.

Roger:  That's right. Those are the guys here you are going to call to tell the court, to explain your papers. Your not going to do it. Your going to call a witness to do it.

*  I see.

Roger:  Because if you do it here. Your going to go bye, bye.

*  I see, I understand.

Roger: Now, that's the essence of the entire thing. Now, the business of your Birth Certificate and that being registered. That there is your position in your own mind to know here that that is your property, which is the Strawman.

*  Right.

Roger:  Okay, that's...You see, you've listed your Strawman as the property and now they're trying to use it.

*  Right. Well, that's why I'm wondering whether it would be proper even, to let them know, and give them a copy of the paperwork.

Roger:  Sure you can, but not to the judge here, but to the prosecutor, the guy that's prosecuting you. Now, do you have an attorney or do they assume that you have one?

*  No, I've gotten the attorney off the case and the public defender off the case. Now I'm ready to do whatever I need to do or say whatever I need to say, "May I have your name please ?, Do you have a claim against me"

Roger:  Yeah, you see, you want to be sure of that, because otherwise they may assume that those guys are the holders of the bond. So you see, if you can't get it concluded by calling those two fellows as your witnesses, then you call those attorneys. But you see, the only way that you are going to really get hurt is that somebody has got to be up in the witness chair now.

*  Even though i'm on probation, they still have to get me through the hearing, and identify me they still have to get somebody.

Roger :  Yeah, but even if they come up and say, "your on probation, or this guys on probation blah, blah, blah, somebody's still got to get up on the stand and enter that into evidence, okay? When they do, you know what the three magic questions are. That's when you smack them with it. You see, the only thing that's going to hurt you is what comes out of that witness chair. So, you see, when you go in there...  You can do your discussion here with the judge here, but, you don't start to explain what you're doing. When he asks you those questions you tell him here, "well, i'm going to call a witness for that". (* Okay.) That's when you ask them the three magic questions.

*  What causes or forces them to remove the account or the charges from the Fiscal year and to place it in the Calender year, for my placement of it in my Calender year?...

Roger:  No, no, it's when you accept, you take it into the Calender year. Okay?

* I'm trying to get a better understanding of that.

Roger:  Well, they only operate in the Fiscal year. Until they want to come privately, and they're assuming here that they have a private agreement with you. But you see, the fact of the matter is, that they don't.... except here until you accept. (* Okay) Now once you "accept", now you've take the Fiscal Year into the Calender year, or the Fiscal account, into the Calender year, and now when you give it back to them, now it's back in the Fiscal year, now they have a Tax obligation. You have made a "Tax Return". You have given them a "Tax Return". State it right on your acceptance here when you send it back to them next time.

*  Tax Return...?

Roger:  "This is my tax return to you, you are now in possession here of a delinquent tax."

*  Okay, well, you've mentioned how the call goes in to the floor of the world trade center when you say, "I request the order of the court be released to me". Were you talking about that in a literal sense? (Roger: Yeah.)  Because of their Fiduciary duty?

Roger:  Yeah. They have the license, we don't. You see, what they want to do is negotiate with you, but they didn't give you a negotiable instrument. Therefore, ..because if they gave you a negotiable instrument all you'd have to do is endorse it back to them here, and it would be paid.

* By "Accepting" it?

Roger:  Yeah, by Accepting it, and endorsing it back to them if it was a check...but they didn't give you a check, so there is no negotiation... They didn't give you a negotiable instrument so now you're returning to them the offer, of the contract itself. (*Okay.) And see, that's a Treasury Bill. He gave you a Bill, when you "accepted" it becomes a Treasury Bill because it's eligible then to be funded from the Treasury. If they need funds. But, see, they can't openly have exchange in funds here, because it's against the law. HJR-192 here took the gold and took the money out of circulation back then. So, and it stated here, that those Fiduciaries can only exchange here in dollar for dollar. They can't exchange dollar for substance. (*  I understand that.) .. So, they can't take your body, in exchange here, for the claim.

*  I See. Okay. A warrant, that was issued by the judge, that end up resulting in my arrest, that would be considered a kidnapping, privately,... would I be considering that privately as a kidnapping by the police officers?

Roger :  Don't start that. Your going to have to testify if you going to start trying to press that kind of stuff. You will get yourself here in a jam. Who cares what your gonna call it, you're just saying I accept here whatever you guys say it was, and if you think here, if the judge needs more testimony, i'm gonna call you as a witness and you're gonna get in there and tell 'em. So the thing is here...

*  So, you wouldn't accept something like an incarceration as an offer?...

Roger:  Oh, yeah. A warrant or anything. That's an offer. You bet it is. And you serve it on them "Accepted for Value" so that they've got it in the court record here when you go in there. Because when you go in there, the judge is gonna make some remarks here about you being there or whatever, and if your prepared now here to tell  him here..why..and whatthis is..and what you mean by everything. Then  guess what your gonna do? Your gonna tell him , "well your honor, i'm going to call a witness here who will give you that information. And then you name them. Don't name them until then. You see, you can even let them know, the prosecutor, that you'll see him in court here that particular day, and that your going to call, your going to bring a witness. (Laugh.) Your going to bring a witness here for the information here that you require. Whatever, however you want to do it. You don't have to tell them if you don't want to.

*  Right. I understand what your saying though. So, I would be considering the warrant  that went out and my subsequent arrest and incarceration, that would be a seperate offer?...or it wouldn't be?...

Roger:  Well, you , how ever you want to take it, but the thing is, that's the central issue.

*  Because see, I understand there's the account that was created where they're borrowing on my name...

Roger:  But don't get into that. That's exactly what that warrant represents. So don't start to get into those abstracts here or your going to ware yourself out, and your probably not going to address it right. Your going to have too many abstracts on your mind. That's the central issue.

*  What is the way then, that you would, when they come to arrest you, there isn't really a way to stay out from...

Roger:  What do you mean, when they come to arrest you?.. Your gonna go to that hearing.

*  Well, i'm just saying....

Roger:  Well then why are you  talking about being arrested.

*  Well, what happened in this last situation was that I was just sitting in my house, and the police knocked on the door, and I did'nt think it would be a big deal or anything, but then they realized I had warrants. So, i'm just saying.. at the moment you could be arrested .....

Roger: Yeah but why are you bringing that into this?

*  Well i'm just....

Roger:  Your creating problems for yourself when you do that. Keep this matter straight here, and don't start planning here on a failure because otherwise this ain't gonna work for you. You cross that bridge when you get to it. You take care of this now here or you will have them coming up there with a warrant and some cuffs.

*  When is there value come in when the account hasn't been adjusted and...

Roger:  Why are you asking that? That's a general observation. You don't need any of that. You need the specifics right now and you need to have them taken care of.

*  I'm learning this...

Roger:  Well then don't get into the generalities, because your gonna confuse yourself with the specifics. And your not gonna be able to look after yourself, if you start taking on too much of this now. You just take care of what's gonna happen in that proceeding. Cause I can't see why your asking these other of questions.

*  Oh. Because I've been involved in the study of it...

Roger:  But you see, that has nothing to do with. .. You better be able to take care of that business in court over there or your going to have to start back from square one. Your gonna be behind bars. So why are you getting into that other stuff here. Your letting that other...as if you already conquered it.

*  Okay, I understand.

Roger: And if you have already conquered it, then you have no need to ask these other questions. If your that confident. But, you see what i'm saying here, is that your mixing things here that are going to cause you to compromise your own position.

*  Yeah. I just have alot of questions because i've been learning this for awhile...

Roger:  Yeah, I know it. (*...I don't want to be learning it wrong) Your not learning it wrong here, your just bringing it all up, and your speculating here, on A-Z. You have to  live today here before tomorrow comes. That's what you've got to do. Today is sufficient for today. Don't start speculating here on the future. That's what the Dow Jones is for here...

*  I'm just ....well, one of my concerns is.. they decide well, this is something that we're going to ignore, and were going to railroad him and were going to throw him in jail for a while...

Roger:  How do you know here that's that what they're doing, you see, your speculating on all that. You get these specifics done like you told me. And stay with that. Stay away from this other kind of thinking.

* Okay. Well, I've sent them in one notice of the acceptance. Should I be sending them now my second notice and request for Taxpayer Identification #? ..

Roger: Well, you have...Just send them the acceptance, yeah, you can ask them for the taxpayer I.D., and blah, blah, blah...that's all the paperwork that's going to be in their hands when you get into court. And then when you get in there, then we go about this other business about you calling the witness and everything....STOP asking questions about this other stuff here!..Do you know why it's so dangerous? (*Why?..)  Because your programming your subconscious mind to look after you. When you go in there your going to be ad-libbing alot of things, and you have to rely on your subconscious here to alert you to danger. You bring all this other crap in there and your confusing your subconscious mind, and pretty soon here, it's not going to know when to alert you. That's what's really wrong. So, you see, you need to just focus here on that. Leave the rest of this stuff alone. You'll have plenty of time here in the future..if any of this gets away from you. You have all eternity here...to pursue the rest of those things. (*Agreed) You only have between now and when that occurance happens here to take care of that business in court.

*  Yeah. That's coming up. I've got two different court appearances and now their considering pressing charges against me up here now for...

Roger: Okay. But you handle them the same way. You take their charge, you see, because their charges are empty. Why? Because they don't have a check, or they don't give you the charges. You know what charges are?

* Financial.

Roger: That's right. And you see, you know what sin is? .. Sin is the absence of the real charge. It's the fake. Their faking it.

*  Without the energy.

Roger: Right. So you say, "Okay, I'll Accept". That's the only way you can overcome here, the charge, because otherwise they assume here that you now have furnished the charge, you have witnessed against yourself, and now their going to use that energy here to jail you.

*  How many of the ...as a ratio compared to the judges, how many of the D.A.s and prosecutors, do you think, are aware of the inherintness of the system, with the accounting and with the nature of the charges...

Roger: They know what they are. (* They do?) Damn right they do . They're holding it all in bar. In Bar here, is the secret organization. They don't have to relate it out into the fiduciary creditor or the fiduciary debtor. They hold it in between.

*  Okay. So that they can make money off of it?

Roger:  Well, lots of reasons here, but who cares, the thing is here that they do it, and were the victims, so..but the way we're going to do, to prevail here, is to make them accountable here for the Tax Liability, that's what we're doing. They said it, "Okay then buddy, how come you haven't paid the taxes on it?". You see, and a well...and they come back and tell you here well, your the Taxpayer and your delinquent. "Oh no here Mr. didn't I give you an Acceptance?, What do you have here? What's this piece of paper here? It's an acceptance. It was mailed to you. That's a Tax Return,. Your in possession here of a delinquent tax buddy. That was returned to you. That was my Tax Return". But you aren't going to testify to that in open court. You might do it on paper. And give it to one of them, that you can call them to tell them to tell the court what's on that paper, but don't you ever try it, you don't go outside of those three magic questions.

*  Okay. Now do you recommend?...I have your accounting instructions letter. Do you recommend.. Now I don't...I understand it to a degree but I don't have alot of expertise with accounting.

Roger:  Yeah, but your getting general with me again here, now don't do that tonight. Because your gonna hurt yourself.

*  So, I shouldn't at this point, send anymore paperwork in to them?

Roger:  Sure. Just take their warrants or whatever they got, that's it. Acceptance, and then whatever your going to do here when you get into court.

*  Well, what i'm wondering is if I should send in the accounting instructions letter even though I don't have a complete understanding of it, and include that.

Roger:  I wouldn't. If you don't here,.... then don't send it. You better know here, now here, what your doing. You see, or keep it simple enough here, so you do.

*  So that i'm in alignment?

Roger: Ahuh.

* Yeah, that's one of my focuses.

Roger: Okay, I've got to cut this off here, I've got people that are even in worse shape than you are.

*  Okay, well I appreciate it very much. Thank you for your time and consideration. Have a good night.

Roger: Good night.