Dave: Jean has a few questions.
Jean: How are you doing?
Roger: Same old, same old....one day at a time.
Jean: If a police officer stops you, and you identify yourself to him, isn't that the same as in a Court
       room?
Roger: These guys are trained to get 100% physical on you if they lose control of the oral
       conversation.
Jean: Where did you hear this?
Roger: It comes as a result of the training they send these guys out to in Virginia. They train them --
       If they lose control of the oral conversation out on the sidewalk, they call for backup, and
       they're trained to go 100% physical. They can kill you. You get some psychopath in uniform,
       he'll threaten your life. So, it isn't a good idea to encourage anybody to fool around with that
       ticket. Just sign it and take care of it in Court.
Jean: In other words, accept, and just sign it and .....
Roger: Yeah. It is "accepted for value", and make sure that that is written on the Ticket, -- when
       that ticket goes to the judge. Because when you walk in YOU have a "Commercial
       Instrument" that he's got in his hands, and that Ticket is no good unless they can prove the value
       of it. If you accept it for value, the guy who issued the Ticket is going to have to ....
Jean: When you say "Value", do you mean it represents the Credit that they borrowed on your
       account?
Roger: It could be anything. Whatever they are representing. I'm accepting it for value, because
       what you are doing, (muffled) is acceptance again.
Jean: Let's say you get a speeding ticket......
Roger: The acceptance is the mirror image of the offer.
Jean: O.K. The mirror image of the offer from who?
Roger: Whoever issued the Ticket.
Jean: Let's say he gives you a speeding Ticket.
Roger: It doesn't make any difference what it is. You "accept it for value", and if he says, "this is
       how much the fine is". Well then they have an obligation now to put up the reserves. Because
       if they are going to say yoy can pay the fine, (which is capital punishment), because you can
       settle it with "Capital", cant' you?
Jean: Yeah.
Roger: Okay. Well, then, that's what it is. It's all "Capital Punishment", is what all these Tickets are,
       -- and all fines are. They say how much the fine is, and I say, "Okay, I accept, now where is
       the money?"  You see, "So I pay the fine?" If you don't have any money, you can't pay the fine,
       and if you don't have the fine in your possession---
Jean: So, when you accept it for value, it is then credited to your account -- because there is no
       money?
Roger: Yeah! So now I've got the money to pay the thing with, but oddly enough, they took it from
       your account to start with, so it is "prepaid". But you see, if they don't "admit" that it's
       prepaid, then they are making a private claim, and now you have a new issue that is taxable.
       Otherwise, it is exempt.
Jean: Exempt because it has already been prepaid.
Roger: Yeah.
Jean: Okay. If they are making a "Private" claim....
Roger: They are making another claim, see?
Jean: They are making another claim in addition to the claim that they already borrowed.
Roger: Yeah. If they are referring to it being something different, -
Jean: Isn't that what they are doing when they say you are a "Taxpayer"? Aren't they making
      another claim?
Roger: Yeah. But, if they are a Taxpayer, they have to produce the "Reserves" then, because what
      they are doing is they are switching places as the sponsor of the "credit".
Jean: They are assuming "Your" position.   (Roger: Yeah.)  They are saying they are creditor and
      we're the debtor.
Roger: Yeah. And they're saying we are using their credit.
Jean: When in reality, they are using OUR credit.
Roger: Yeah. But that's why, when we say, "I accept for value", I become the "Holder", and now
      we are going to force the issue on them. Because HE is going to have to put up the "Reserves".
      Where are they at? Are they in MY account, or YOUR account?
Jean: So, when we say that, then it goes to HIS account, so he has to put it up. And when you say,
      "You accept for value", it's based on YOUR account.
Roger: Yeah, now, it is subject to a "Reversing Entry" in to the account. Because if you get into
       your accounting procedures....
Jean: Because, what they are doing is making a "Private claim" against you? Aren't they??
Roger: Yeah. So they fall under the "Privacy Act" then, and the "Paperwork Reduction Act" is in
       effect at that point.
Jean: I understand, they have to get your "consent" in order to do it.
Roger: Yeah. They have to be "Holding" your account, with your consent.
Jean: And that's what they do when you give them your Name isn't it?
Roger: Yeah. That's right. But, when you ask them for theirs, then it switches. You are "Holding
       their Name".
Jean: So, now, actually they are in the same position YOU are in, aren't they?
Roger: Yeah.
Jean: You said, when they register the "Birth Certificate", it starts to "Bind the Commecial Value"
      of everything. What do you mean by that?
Roger: Yeah. The money, - the charges are found in the "Criminal" jurisdiction. But you and I, as a
      (Ed.-Real) person, can't be hit with those charges, in other words, the charges which would be
      the elecrical energy of - it's floating in the universe. But the...your (Ed.-fiction) "Strawman" can
      fit into that jurisdiction, because the "Strawman" ....
Jean: You are actually playing the role of a "Victim", aren't you...?
Roger: Right. So we put the "Strawman" (Ed.-fiction) in there. And the "Strawman" says
      "Yeah, Sure" (Ed- 'cause he doesn't have a brain)  We need to be the "Holder" of that
      "Strawman", but the Internal Revenue Service is set up here to where they only recognize two
      different kinds of people, an Employee, or an Employer. And an Employer is the one that is
      recognized as being the "Source". The source of the "Principle".
Jean: The Employer is the Principal with the account. And that's the only one that can get "Credit".
Roger: Yeah. So you see, , when you just give them a "Social Security" number, or you don't give
      them ANY , you know you just get into an arguement with them, and you answer their
      allegation......
Jean: Do you ever have them come back and say that your Social Security number is an Employee's
      Social Security number?
Roger: Oh. They're not going to say that. They just assume it and they act on it. I don't think they
      are ever told the difference, alot of those people. Even some of these "Public Accountants"
      really don't understand that difference. They know how to work the "spread sheets".
Jean: What if you are working for somebody? Aren't you in the capacity of an Employee?
Roger: Well, no. Not if your exempt. That's YOUR business and the other, - and the capitalization
      of HIS business is YOURS too.
Jean: Getting back to the "Binding of the commercial value" of everything. You said that the charges
      are brought into the criminal aspect of the Statutes.
Roger: That's where the "Source" is.
Jean: What are you speaking of  - "Source"?
Roger: The original creation. The "Principal".
Jean: Which is what?  The "credit"?
Roger: But the Credit has to come from somewhere. From some account.
Jean: When you say an account, what do you.....
Roger: Well, you have to have a "Principal" account before there can be any "Interest". Say, like
      if you go into a Bank and borrow money, there is a Principal from which they're going to --
      you go in and borrow a thousand dollars, Okay?, the thousand dollar principle is the
      "Collateral Endorsement". And they take that thousand dollars and put it into a checking
      account, and you draw down on it , it starts pulling interest.
Jean: They get Interest off it?
Roger: Well. Yeah. They do. They take the "Interest", but it must accrue back to the "Principal"
      account, until it is fully repaid, or returned. It has to "return" to the "Principal". But you see,
      when that happens, we create the money to come out into circulation.
Jean: They are the ones collecting all the "interest"?
Roger: Yeah. And they are the ones that are liable for the return. Because you see, when I go in,
      let's say YOU and I go in and borrow money, --
Jean: When you say "return", you mean the "Tax Return"?
Roger: Yeah. It has to be the "Interest Return" to the Principal, -- to zero out the debt, and release
      the Property, from the debt.
Jean: I thought we were the Principal.
Roger: We are. That's why it has to "return" to "Us".
Jean: When you say "return to Us", ...
Roger: -- to our account.
Jean: It has to be "credited to our account".
Roger: It has got to reach our account to where it goes to zero. Because when you sign a Note for
      sat One Hundred Bucks, and it goes through the process, when it comes back to that account,
      the Interest comes back to the Principle, it goes to zero, doesn't it?
Jean: If it is credited, - Yeah. Isn't the Interest always less than the Principle?
Roger: Well, it has to be to have equal value. It can't be any more because the Interest comes from
      the Principle.
Jean: The amount of Interest is usually less than. The amount of Interest that's collected on the
      Principal, - Say they loan you a Thousand Dollars. They only charge you maybe 23% interest.
Roger: Depends on how long you've got it. Take a broader niew. You are talking about things that
      are internal, that are secondary accounting. Let's take an overview of the whole thing. Let's say
      I take the Thousand Dollars and buy a car or something. And I sign the Note that I promise to
      repay the loan. When I but the car from  "Registered Dealer", I have repaid the loan right there.
      Why? Because I don't have any of the money in my possession anymore. Someone else does.
Jean: Okay.
Riger: If I don't have the money, I don't have any "Income". ---  (Jean: Okay)   ---  So, I don't
      report "Income" I don't have.
Jean: When you get paid with a payroll check, don't you have the money in your possession?
Roger: Yeah. Sure you do.  So, what are you going to do with it? When you spend it, you ain't
      got it.   --  (Jean: Okay.)  --  But what I'm getting at here is these guys who are making claims
      on us -- they also have to produce the money, here to support the claim. They have to put up
      the "Reserves for the Damages". Because.....
Jean: I understand what you are saying.
Roger: You can't pay something here with money, when you haven't got the money. We, who's
      got it then?
Jean: They have got it?
Roger: The God Damned "Attorneys" have got most of it. And they are obstructing it. And they are
      NOT making the "Return" to the "Account". Because I'm saying, - if you Buddy, if you have
      got a Claim, then I want you to adjust my account, because I am entitled to "Public Policy".
Jean: And it's against Public Policy to draw up a Contract that calls for the payment of "money".
      So THEY have the money. So, since they have the money, they have to credit my account.
Roger: That's right. They have the obligation. You see, because "Public Policy" is "Grace".
Jean: You are actually using their own law on them, aren't you?
Roger: Yeah. Because they've got to discharge their duties Dollar for Dollar, between the Venue
      and the Re-Venue. When they do that, the account goes to zero. And the property comes Free,
      becomes loose. Now, they've got to hand over the property.
Jean: You define the "Venue" as what, Principal?
Roger: The Venue here is,--  it is the Steward of the account who is the one who has managed my
      account because I am a Sovereign and I have Employees that do that.  You know, the
      Employee that is in possession of the original account, and that could be the one that's holding
      your Birth Certificate.
Jean: Okay.
Roger: It's either the Secretary of the Treasury, or it is some other Employee in that realm, or it
      could be the Comptroller, or whoever wants to take responsibility on THAT side. Or else we
      have to go after Clinton. But no matter, THAT'S  the "Venue".  Then the "re-venue" -- it's the
      State of affair, or the State of Emergency, however you want to call it, it' s the "Warrant of the
      State". The "Warrant of the State" is the "Guarantee".
Jean: That they have the money?
Roger: That this 'IS' the money in fact, because they have to regulate the fact in the geographical
      location that it is. And it has to be matching funds with the "Fed", and that's how the "Fed"
      regulates the value of it.
Jean: In other words, they Warrant that they will back up the debt of the "Fed".
Roger: Yeah. Right.  And that's the Warranty.  Everybody understands the word "Warranty", but
      they don't understand the word "Warrant".
Jean: That's what a Warrant really is then, isn't it?  It's a Warranty.
Roger: Yeah. It has to have your name on it. It has to have somebody's 'name'  on it.
      See, otherwise a Warrant....
Jean: So, when you go in there and identify yourself, as being the person on the "Warranty", you
      are warranting what the State is doing.
Roger: Yeah.
Jean: Instead of the State doing it..... You actually become the "Straw Man" for the State?
Roger: Yeah.  And you see, if the warrant is issued and there is no "Order" for the "warrant", all
      it is is a search warrant then. It does NOT have the authority to hold a "Habeas Corpus". All
      it can do is search.
Jean: So, what you mean when you say "Bind the commercial value of everything", you're saying
      that THEY ARE  the "Holders of the Value", so THEY have to put up the "collateral".
Roger: Yep. They have to guarantee that it is in that geographical jurisdiction, or location. (State of
      the Forum)
Jean: And they can't do that until you accept it for value.
Roger: Right.
Jean: Because they are doing everything based  (Roger - in the State of the Forum) on the "Futures"
       that's what the "Hedges Account", "Hedges Counting".
Roger: Yeah. They are "Hedging" their accounts in the "World Trade Center", but they AREN'T
      "Putting" anything in it. The "Puts" and "Calls".
Jean: What is the "World Trade Center"? Is that like a Stock Exchange, a Securities Exchange?
Roger: Yeah. It's a "Commodities Exchange".
Jean: What is the actual commodity? Is it your labor? Productivity?
Roger: It's your "Body".  Your body is holding the potential electrical energy and your intellect that
      allows and provides for the crossing over into the other side of the account. Between your
      sub-conscious and your conscious mind. But the Fed deals with Indirect Evidence. The Fed.
      Courts do not have jurisdiction over a matter until there is a "Breech of Contract". They only
      have jurisdiction to try the "Breech". So there has to be an allegation of a Breech of some kind.
      Well the Breech that they are talking about, is not between you or me and the government, --
      It is between "Venue" and "Re-venue". The government "Employees" themselves.
Jean: They are the ones that have to make a "Return" of, -- that's what it states in Title 26, that the
      Secretary of the Treasury has to make a "Return", if YOU don't make one.
Roger: Yeah. And that's "Public Policy". They've got to exchange Dollar for Dollar between
      themselves and zero out the liability. And when they zero out the liability, then you see, the
      property is released to US and WE are eligible to request a "Release" and get it. And then, if
      they don't release the property to us, then somebody is making a "Private Claim" here, and
      THERE'S where the "Criminal Charge" will go, - against that person who is making a new issue.
      He's a "Tax Protester", and THAT's where the jurisdiction reverses on these characters. And
      you see, that Attorney, now, no longer has immunity.
Jean: Okay. The property you're speaking of is the "value" that is represented by the instrument.
      That's all.
Roger: That's right. It could be "things", or it could be an account under Securites, too. Equal to
      what you just prosecuted. That's why people get confused. There are actually three (3) parts
      to an account. You got a "Credit", a "Debit" and you've got a "Release" of the "Value". And
      that could each be a Thousand Bucks each.
Jean: Have you actually taken one of these "Tickets" and got the bank to issue a "Certificate of
      Deposit", and deposited it in your account?
Roger: Well no, I haven't. We have had some variations of those kinds of things done over the
      years, to where I know that we could do it. I'm just applying those principles to all of the
      larger accounts of my commercial property. But, we haven' treally gotten to 'that'.
Jean: You haven't really done that, then?
Roger: We have run it into the banks here, and we are wrestling the banks with it, now, over some
      of them.
Jean: What do the banks usually do?
Roger: They either just sit and do nothing, or else they dishonor you, or they come back and say,
      "We don't know what this is", or "We are 'confused' " . The account is "fused" then. Because,
      what do you do when the light go out in your automobile? What's the first thing you look for?
Jean: Fuse panel.
Roger: Right. Then we "Re-fuse" it, don't we?... --  Jean (Yeah.) -- So, when they "Re-fuse" here,
       why We are sticking them in the account here as the "fuse". Because, We accept that "Refusal"
       for value. Now we're going to go through HIS "body". If that's the way he wants to DO it.
       HE'S going to sponsor the Credit now. But, you see, because they are operating their offices
       with their Straw Man.....
Jean: I see. In other words, that "Ticket" represents "value", and if he doesn't credit it to
       YOUR account, then HE has to credit it.
Roger: Yeah.
Jean: Because, in order to zero the account, somebody has to DO that.
Roger: Right. And I want to see the "Fiduciary Tax Return" then. Because I can tell here and I
        know when he is delinquent on his taxes, and the reason I know is because I don't have an
        adjustment on my account. So I know there is a delinquent somewhere.
Jean: If YOU don't have the money in your possession, because of "Public Policy", how can HE be
        liable for the Tax if HE doesn't have the money either.
Roger: Because HE is bound by "Public Policy" to discharge his duty Dollar for Dollar. HE'S got to
        zero out my account. And when my account is zero, I am entitled to the release of my
        property. That's why I know.
Jean: When you say "Release of the property", that would be the "Ticket"....
Roger: Whatever it is.
Jean: They have to return the Ticket to you.
Roger: Oh, they have to return the Ticket to you, but you see...
Jean: That's why you ask in Court, For the "Order of the Court be Released".
Roger: Yeah. But if they say that the "Fine" and the "Ticket" is Thirty Bucks, I want the Thirty Bucks
       too. That's "Property".
Jean: In other words, you want the "value" that the Ticket represents.
Roger: Damn right I do. And you see, the Administration of the Court can't administrate that thing
       unless they get paid, right? So this Ticket is contributing to their Salary and Wages.
Jean: Okay.
Roger: Well, so I'm going to be the holder of that 30 dollar bond, so that they can get the 30 bucks
       off the other side .
Jean: So, when YOU become the "holder", then THEY have to put up the money.
Roger: Damn right they do.
Jean: They have to pay their own wages, don't they?
Roger: Yeah. And if they want their wages paid , they better be sure that I am holding in fact the
       "other side" of that "Bond". And we have to have an agreement then.
Jean: What does that mean exactly, when you say the "Taxpayer in fact"?
Roger: Well, it supercedes all the assumptions. That's the way we get rid of these presumptions of
       evidence on the Federal side. Because the Federal Rules of Evidence are all indirect, so they
       all work on presumptions which are circumstantial evidence. Same thing that was operating
       when they were operating the "Inquisition" in Spain. This was the basis for the "Spanish
       Inquisition".
Jean: What was the basis?
Roger: The assumption of conspiracy or criminal evidence. They base it on assumption, not on fact.
Jean: You have to rebut their presumption.
Roger: You have to overcome it. You can't argue it or rebut it. What you have to do is accept it,
       and accept it for value, and then you have to cause "the fact" to displace it. Otherwise you
       can't get rid of it.
Jean: Oh. You only become ":the fact" when you become the "Holder"?
Roger: When you become the "Holder in fact", that's when you "accept in fact".
Jean: The value accepted displaces the assumption?
Roger: Right. Because it's a fact now that you did it, so when you sign that Ticket "Accepted For
       Value", and it's laying on that judge's desk, and you are in there, they no longer have any
       "assumptive evidence". They've got "the fact" in there, that YOU are the "Holder in Due
       Course", you're of that Bond.
Jean: They have to honor it, don't they?
Roger: Well they've got to do something with it. I don't know anybody that works for the
       government that Honors anything. They are all dishonorable. But the judge here, says he's
       "Honorable." He wants everybody else to confess that, but I don't know if he would confess
       that. He dishonors everybody, so HE is not being Honorable.
Jean: You state that YOU are the "Taxpayer in Fact".  What are they?  The Taxpayer in what?
Roger: Form.  The Venue and the Re-Venue - the only way that they can say that we're Venue
       and the other one is Re-Venue, they have to have our/my "Consent". If they don't, - they're
       BOTH  "Venue", and there's no "Re-Venue" yet.
Jean: In other words, Re-Venue is the Return then, isn't it?
Roger: Yeah. The revenue. The word is spelled the same, it's just pronounced different. -- Most of
       the people who work in these capacities, really don't know what the consequences of it all is.
       There's a few of them that do, but as soon as this word starts to get around, and people start
       to prosecute it, they're going to find out that they can't use all these "hirelings" of theirs that
       don't know what they're doing, to continue to harass the individual and infringe on his property.
Jean: In other words, all they can do under  "Public Policy", because there is no money, all they can
      do is "Discharge" the account, and they have that responsibility under "Public Policy".
Roger: That's right.
Jean: You can't perform on the Contract, because of public policy, so they have to credit it to your
      account.
Roger: That's right. And once they DO THAT, then the property has got to be released at your
      request.
Jean: In other words, we have to wuite pretending like there's money.
Roger: Yeah. Yeah.
Jean: Everybody is pretending like they have something of value/money. Roger: Yeah. And they're
      "drunk". They think they have money, and they get to really swaggering and they get arrogant.
      I can test these guys, who got into raising "Suger Beets" out there. Because they were handling
      enough money, everybody thought that these guys have money and nobody else did. The
      arrogance that they displayed, all they did was make alot of enemies out of people who didn't
      have it. And now the economy has caught up with them, and these "Beet Producers" are going
      under. And nobody gives a damn. They all laugh when these guys go under and bite the dust.
      So, there's a good illustration of it. Because they are still dealing in what? "Public Funds".
Jean: In other words, what they are asking YOU to do  is to perform their duty for them by
      discharging the debt.
Roger: Yeah. But the problem is, -- they are still in the "pub - lick" or in the "Pub" - They're
      "Drunk".  If they had stayed in the "Bar", maybe they would still be under the legal limit.
      But when they go into the "Pub", your drinking the "Imperial Court" then, rather than the
      U.S. Court. So it's just enoughto put you over the legal limit. So they have been in the "Pub"
      too long. They can't use the "Pub" or the "Greater Bond", because the "Pub", "Pub-lick" policy
      supercedes the "Public Law", because the Statute is dead.
Jean: You mean any Statute that calls for the payment in money.
Roger: Right. So that's why there's Public Policy, and were the ones who give it life, they should
      worship the "Living God", not the "dead" one.
Jean: Actually, there is no law then, is there?  There's no enforceable Statute.
Roger: Right...Right.  But he said "I do not come to destroy the Law, I come to fulfill it".  So we
      say, get you...
Jean: That's what all these Churches are teaching, that we are under grace, we are not under Law.
Roger: Yeah
Jean: He said, "I come not to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it".
Roger: You see, the idea of the whole thing is based upon a prior condition of....
Jean: If you study UCC 3-415 which is the "accomodation Party" and "accomodation Maker", it
      says that if anybody signs any commercial instrument in any kind of capacity, he becomes a
      "Guarantor" or "endorser" of that loan.
Roger: Yeah.
Jean: Isn't that what they're doing, they're borrowing on your signature?
Roger: Sure they are. But what you want to do is issue a "Draft" against it, and then attach that
      "instrument", and it becomes a "Documentary Draft" with the "attachments". So you just issue
      your Draft and go ahead and pay it. See, if you go in and buy a car, for instance, and he's
      going to tell you, "I need to have a Down Payment", and then you say, "Well, if I am going to
      give you a "Down Payment", I have to have a "Firm Offer" from you". In other words,
      somebody in your organization has to sign off  on the Contract, - to guarantee me title and
      "Possession". So, the "Firm Offer" is going to be the "Front Page" of that Contract, and he'll
      surrender that to you at that point, and then when you take your "Draft" and issue the "Draft"
      on it, you attach the "Draft"... attach the Front Page of the Contract to the draft....
Jean: What do you mean "Draft"? Would that be a "Money Order"?
Roger: Well, sure...It would be a "Drafted Money Order" , "Pay to the Order of"......
Jean: Okay, but where do you get THAT from?
Roger: Well, you just write it up in a letter. -- If you had to - or, you write it down, it's the "Order
      to pay" and clip it to a UCC-1 "Financing Statement" and "register" it. Or, you could, when
      you are making up the Contract, you could state it right in the "escrow instructions" that the
      seller is obligated and then has the obligation to make and pay for all the registrations required
      to pass Title to you. Well, if that's the case, he has to also pay up the filing fee for filing of the
      UCC-1 form, because "Registration" is required to exempt the tax. When they do that, they
      have now aquired the full amount of the draft as an offset on the corporate debt. So they can
      go to the Internal Revenue and get a payment, by offset. Because that's the Venue and the
      Re-Venue coming together. Enjoying the account, you've got the keys, possession, they have
      passed Title to you. You're gone.
Jean: Okay. THEY have to register the vehicle, not YOU.
Roger: That's right. But, you want to write that into the escrow instructions. When you give them a
      Draft, if you happen to give them the "Draft" right there. ......
Jean: In other words, when you buy Real Estate THEY have to register that.
Roger: Oh, Yeah. But you have to write it into the escrow instructions, so it's part of the
      instructions, because if you take and hook all of those to a UCC-1 Financing Statement and
      send it in to the Secretary of State, they'll send it back to you and say, "We can't file it without
      payment". But if you had it written into the Contract that the seller is the one obligated to pay
      all the registration fees, then you tell the "Filing Officer" to file it, and after filing, to send it on
      to the Dealer for payment, because it's written right into the Contract, and you've tendered
      payment right there.
Jean: So, they have to bill the "Dealer" for registration fees then instead of you?
Roger: Yeah. Now, I did that right here while I was in Sandstone, for a guy. We took money right
      out of a "Federal Tax Levy" and instructed that the Social Services (that were after him for
      child support)...
Jean: Where is Sandstone?
Roger: It's North of Minneapolis. Close to Duluth.
Jean: So, he was in Prison when this happened?
Roger: Yeah. And they took it right out of the,  - He had a $97,000.00 "Internal Revenue" Bill.
      We told them to take the "Child Support" from the "Internal Revenue Account", and pay up
      the Child Support, and they DID it. Then they came around later and gave him a "Federal
      Tax Lien" for the balance of $90,000.00 bucks that was left. So they took the money right
      out of there and settled his Child Support.
Jean: So, they took $7,000.00 out for Child Support, right?
Roger: Yeah. A little over that /73 or /74. Something like that. So you see, ....
Jean: It's relatively simple, once you understand the principle, isn't it?
Roger: Yeah. Once you know which side to apply it to, you know they always try their ways of
      weaseling around it, but we did find some ways of binding them to it, by filing with the
      Secretary of State.
Jean: Well, I will do this work on taking these "Tickets" and getting them deposited in the bank. I
      think there's a way to do that. There's a way to force the Banker to do it.
Roger: Here's the way you do it. Remember the way I was telling you, just like on a car, you see
      a  "Certificate of Deposit" in a bank, is the same thing as you buying a car. Because we have to
      go in and buy a "Certificate of Deposit". The Bank has to have your signature so that they can
      write the Check to the Treasury direct, because they have already got your "Order" to pay.
      It's like you signing an Order and ordering up stuff like say Sears Roebuck. Let's say that's the
      Sears Roebuck Bank. You go in and fill out the "Catalog Order" for the kind of "CD" that you
      want in the bank.
Jean: In other words, the Certificate of Deposit that you sign actually becomes an "Order".
Roger: Yeah. That's what it is. It's a "Money Order". But you see, they call it a "Purchase Order",
      or P.O. sometimes, it's a "Purchase Order".
Jean: Then what do you do with it, give it to the guy at the Bank?
Roger: When you go in to buy a Car, you agree and you say "Yup, I'll buy THAT Car for THAT
      price", tell him to "Write her up", Okay. He's preparing the Contract, but IN that Contract is
      where your gonna have these escrow instructions, okay? Let's say you don't put any escrow
      instructions in it. So, they are all sort of "implied". So when he says, "Well, what are you gonna
      pay with?", "Well, I'll just pay however you want it". If they want to put it on installments or
      whatever. But you want to reserve in there and make sure that it's part of the Contract that you
      have the right in there to pre-pay and pay up the whole account at any time without penalty.
Jean: That way, when they credit it, - that discharges the whole Contract, at any time, doesn't it?
Roger: Yeah. And as soon as he does that, then he's going to ask you when are you going to
      make the "Down Payment"?.....And that's when you tell him, "Well, I've got to have a "Firm
      Offer"" . "You give me the "Firm Offer" here, and then I'll get the Down Payment up right away".
Jean: Do they know what that means, when you say that?
Roger: Well, not really. The Agents don't. But the Accountants in the back room, and that Attorney
      will. Once you get the deal so far, you tell them, "I want a Firm Offer", then they are going to
      come out and they are going to try to interrogate you, to qualify you. But you say, "Just give me
      the "Firm Offer", and I'll have the Down Payment in here before the end of the day".
Jean: Do they usually do that?
Roger: He has to. Because if he doesn't, you are going to go to the State's Attorney down there,
      and tell them, the State's Attorney will give you HIS check. Because whoever writes the check,
      HE is charging the account. He's charging the individual here with a "Criminal Charge".
Jean: So, the Attorney General is the resident agent then for this guy.
Roger: You bet. He's the "Holder of the Guarantee". The registered agent is actually the "Secretary
      of State".
Jean: Because he licensed them, didn't he?  So he is the Warranty, isn't he?
Roger: Yeah. So, you see, most of those Contracts imply that there has to be a Registration. There
      are provisions in there for you to put the amounts for registration fees? Well, they're talking
      about Registration for the License and stuff like that. But Registration is actually through and
      with the State. An dif it's not with the State, it's going into an Agency, of some kind, but THEY
      have the obligation to do it.
Jean: Because they are the Warranty, aren't they?
Roger: Yeah. But if they are not going into the UCC, into the "Straw Man", -- which only the "real
      Parties" can do that, and there might not even be anybody in the agency that might even
      understand this. So, what you do is you tell them, "I have to have that "Firm Offer", so if you
      guys will give me the "Firm Offer", - that means they have to sign off on it, and they'll give YOU
      the Original  face of that Contract. THEY are going to have the copies. So then you take the
      "Firm Offer" that they've got, ..you see, thay have to have "Title in Fact" to pass to you. That
      means if they are going to have "Title in Fact", that's a Certificate of Title of the State. They
      have to have complied with the State Registration requirements, before they have Title to pass
      to you. So, THAT's the Title passed, right in that instrument right there.
Jean: My Insurance agent is Mike Truitt. He's licensed as an adjuster for Nationwide Insurance
      Company, but he's licensed by the State Insurance Commissioner's Office. He's got a license.
      That's not Registration, is it?
Roger: No....No, it ain't.
Jean: Boy, they really got excited when I asked that. I said I am not asking you if he is licensed. I
      am asking you if he is "Registered".  He has to be Registered with the Secretary of State,
      doesn't he?
Roger: Damn right he does. I'll tell you what, - you really want to shake him up? File a UCC-11
       (UCC-3) form on his name and run "Search" on it. You put his Last Name first, and then your
       just the "Requester" on it. Don't go for anything else. Just the information and a search on his
       name. And have it sent back to you and then just pay the filing fee. That will come back, and
       it will come back and they'll sign a statement showing that he is not registered. And you'll have
       it in the "Wet" signature of the Secretary of State.
Jean: That's evidence that he's not legally doing business, is he?
Roger: That's right.
Jean: That means he is not paying the taxes on the money. He is not making the re-Venue.
Roger: That's right. He is a "Tax Fugitive", at that point. But, they have to get the vehicle paid for.
      So, the only way they can do it is going through your account. So, when you take the "Firm
      Offer and attach it to a "Draft" for a Money Order passing through your account. Okay?
      So you see, you already HAVE the evidence that the account is PREPAID, but they can't
      discharge their duties, unless they can use your account. So you have to ALLOW them to use
      your account.
Jean: What is the evidence you are using?
Roger: Your "Priority", I'm getting to that. But you see, you are giving them the priority to move
      to (through) your account. Why? Because you are authorizing the Registration and the local
      register. UCC. So, you see, YOUR the one that's actually going to have to register it. You
      attach it to a UCC-1 "Financing Statement" and send it in. But the money has to come from the
      "invoice". So you want to make sure that when you close the deal with the guy, you want to
      have enough money in there as an "excess deposit", to make sure for the payment of
      contingencies to finish off the deal. You can put $500 in there - or sometimes these licenses can
      cost a slug of money too, so you add another Thousand dollars to it. That's nothing nowadays,
      buying a New Car.
Jean: Who do you give the Thousand Dollars to?
Roger: They have to actually give that to you when you, within three days, when you leave there
      with the vehicle. They have to have a check written out of their corporate account for every
      dime that's in that Contract. So, they'll just have to give you the keys AND the balance of the
      "Excess Deposit" because the 'Excess Deposit" amount is going to be in there to cover the fees
      with the Secretary of State.
Jean: For the Registration?
Roger: Yeah. So, when you send it to the Secretary of State telling them, to file the statement, and..
Jean: Actually, when they make YOU register the vehicle, they are making you do their work for
      them, aren't they?
Roger: Oh Yeah. But we don't have to pay the fee. if it is written into the Contract, the Secretary
of State with your "Cover Letter", will tell them to send, "After filing", to send the statement to
the Dealer, for the payment of the fees. 
Jean: Do you have to write into the Contract that the seller has to pay all Registration fees?
Roger: Sure. It's usually right in the forms themselves.
Jean: It's like the Sales Tax, isn't it?  It is the same principle. They are making the public pay their
tax for the privilege of selling retail property at the retail level. They are collecting it from the 
Public.
Roger: Right. You have it written into the Contract, because it is a "Retail" item. And THAT'S the
reason you write it into the Contract. Because the "Retail" falls under the "Truth in Lending" 
under Regulation "Z". 
Jean: So, they have three days to credit that to your account. 
Roger: Yep. They've got 72 hours. So, if they get cute with you and say we are not going to give 
you the keys until you pay us, well then I am just going to wait out the "Truth in Lending". And
if the three days go past and you don't have it, then you get the State's Attorney and/or the 
Securites and Exchange Commission to go after them, because they have to have their 
Securites paid for with the Three (3) days. The Truth in Lending is just the backside of the ....
Jean: Under "Public Policy", they have to put up the money that the value of the Contract 
represents.
Roger: Right
Jean: To the Securites and Exchange Commission.
Roger: You bet. Or else they're going to get their license yanked. 
Jean: Where is the Securies Exchange located?
Roger: Washington D.C.. I don't know if they have any...
Jean: Have you actually done this?
Roger: I am not going to tell you, - I don't want it on the phone. Because these are other people's 
private matters, and with these, you have to be careful with them. We did some of those while 
I was in the prison, I just told you about one of them, where we actually took the money and 
paid the Child Support, - but it is the same thing as paying for ANY item. 
Jean: The Principle applies to everything?
Roger: That's why I described it this way. When we asked for the "Firm Offer" in one of the deals, 
we were unexpectedly given the top "wet" original face sheet of the Contract, they kept the 
copies of it...And that was a Car Dealer. So you see, that WAS what the "Firm Offer" was.
In an Offer, and when we accept...Now we have to go through the "Registration" to get the 
"Priority Exemption". It has to be "Registered". If you take a look at Title 26, section 149, that
shows that the "Registration" affects the payment.
Jean: Title 26, that's the Internal Revenue Code, section 149.
Roger: Yeah. If you want to see what the tax rates are, in section 163, it even talks about the 
guarantee - because in there they were talking about Federal Securites, that's what it was. But, 
you see, Federal Securities are actually the guarantee that they rely on. So that's how they 
discuss it in that Statute, as a Federal Guarantee. 
Jean: A Federal Guarantee is not payment?
Roger: But, if you are reading 149, you'll see that the Bonds are exempt when they are registered. 
Reading the two together, you'll begin to see that the "Registration" is the exemption, and that
sort of fits in here with Title 15, section 103(?). Because what that's dealing with is - basically
it is saying that a "Supplementary Registration" cannot preempt the "Principle". 
Jean: Are you saying then. When they Register the vehicle, that it is exempt from taxation, after they
Register it?
Roger: Yeah. It is when YOU authorize the Registration.
Jean: And you do that, by having that in the Contract?
Roger: Yeah. But you see, it is actually not exempt until they actually give you possession. I mean 
that happens simultaneously. But if you don't get "Possession", they don't have an "Exemption" 
either and a "Tax Fugitive", and that's the time to bring the "Tax Authorities" down on them. 
Jean: Because once it is "Registered", then THEY have to pay the Tax on it, don't they?
Roger: Well, it (the Tax) already IS paid. It's simultaneously. It has to be in the Contract. Because
the Contract is the "Firm Offer" that you are "Registering", see? NOW the funds are good. 
And it is a forgone conclusion because you have already made a deal with them, and you are 
standing there, waiting for possession. So you see, the lien has dropped - actually there is a lien
on them at that point.
Jean: A Lien on who?
Roger: On the Dealer.
Jean: A lien for what?
Roger: For the cost of passing the vehicle to YOU. He still owes for that thing. He can't pay it until 
you authorize him, - to go through your account. 
Jean: Dave says there is a Dealer here who pays for all his vehicles with cash. 
Roger: Oh he does, does he??  Oh boy, I'd like to go down and make a deal with him....because 
I'll bring on - That's all "Drug Money". That's all drug money he is dealing with. 
Jean: What do you mean, Drug money?
Roger: It is Drug money, if you can't prove where you got it from. And HE can't. He can't prove 
where the Principle Account is. 
Jean: Are you saying then, that he is not paying for these Cars?
Roger: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. He is not paying for them. 
Jean: Isn't he using his account?
Roger: Sure he is, but he is not using his account in the "Commercial Register". He is "Registered",
so it is not exempt. 
Jean: So, HE has to pay the Tax on it?
Roger: Oh yeah. And it still has not been paid. But if you go in and order a Car from him....
Jean: I'm not talking about paying Tax, I'm talking about purchasing the vehicles.
Roger: Yeah. But that is what the Taxes ARE. All the money involved in the transaction has to be 
passed. Tax kick to the "Principle Account". And he isn't doing that. He is using usury "Public
Money", and all THAT does is continue to circulate. So, you see, somebody is liable for the 
Taxes on (the use of) it. The Public ain't paying it. That's why you have got the deficit
continuing to climb like it is.
Jean: Because nobody is PAYING anything?
Roger: That's right...and he has a "License" to wage War because they are paying "wages" under 
that license. So you see, they are waging war against MY property. So as soon as I go in and 
Order a Vehicle from him, that's MY property, or they are going to have a War they wish they 
had never started. So, those people who he is turning those Vehicles out to, those are still just
"public vehicles". Those people don't have any REDEEMED money. 
Jean: They dont have what?
Roger: They do not have any "Redeemed Funds". It is still "Public Property".
Jean: Redeemed money? You mean money that has been paid?
Roger: Yeah, where they have title to the property. THEY don't have title to it, the PUBLIC does, 
or the STATE does. 
Jean: If the STATE doesn't have any money, how can THEY have title to it?
Roger: They can't. They haven't got any Title. 
Jean: Who does have the Title??
Roger: Nobody, at THIS point. Until I come in and I say I want that Vehicle as mine. If I catch
somebody here that gets "cute", I might just do that. I might catch some of these guys and get
the description of their vehicles out on the street, and I'll go in and say that's my property, and
I'll "foreclose" it right there. 
Jean: You're saying they are borrowing on your credit. What are they borrowing? They're 
borrowing credit on your credit?
Roger: Yeah. They can't get it zeroed out. 
Jean: But, how can you borrow credit? How does that create an obligation? How does borrowing
credit create a debt?
Roger: Oh, I don't know...But if they happen to...you see the credit here. I don't care how many  
numbers they've got, but when it equates into a piece of property, then I'll get somebody else to 
tell the World how much it is. In fact, even if I have somebody here who, am I am DOING
this. I'm starting to do it to a number of people. I'm going to "Forclose" on them  .. and I'll just
go out and if I tell this guy "You are driving MY Car, now I want you to Deed that thing or
Title that thing over to me and give me possession", and he is going to laugh. Right? The I just 
give him a NOTICE. Okay, I accept your "refusal for value", and now I'm going to take that
"Refusal" and I am going to process it to the point that when I go in now, and I say, "since you
injured my reputation or my property by failing to hand over MY property to me, I'm going to
use YOUR "Refusal" as the collateral to go in and make a bid on a New one, and get a 
replacement". But this is going to be "Public Policy". So I am going to take his "Refusal" as a 
matter of "Public Policy", and teach him a lesson.
Jean: So THEY are the ones that are obligated to discharge it?
Roger: Right. If I come to this person, and I say, "That is my Car and I want it, and if he fails to 
give it to me, now HE has made a claim against me, and I say "Okay, I accept your refusal for
value", so I am not(w?) making a claim on him (after I have asked him to give it to me)....
Jean: You are just asking him to credit your account.
Roger: Right...and when he doesn't DO it, then I'm going to say, "Well then, you are not entitled to
an exemption, because you are refusing to give me my property, and I accept your "Refusal", so
I'll just go to the government and get it. So you see, they are in jeopardy because why? Because
they are making claims on other people's property. And so what they are is a "Tax Fugitive" at
that point. Because I am going to take that "Refusal" and I am going to take it and I'm going to 
turn it over to the State, in exchange for a "Certificate of Title". 

End